HMV Horn Gramophone on Ebay

[jamiegramo]

I was curious about this HMV horn machine on eBay. Intermediate Monarch type base with some replaced moulding. Obviously the winding handle and soundbox are not correct and the bracket lacks a finish but what else is wrong with it? The transfer looks oversized for this machine and the brass horn has no recess for the elbow and the elbow doesn’t look the right proportions for HMV. Also is this a period Indian machine?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/205557887893 ... &recoPos=2

[Steve]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's an Indian Intermediate Monarch in a teak case which has been very poorly stripped of its original claret colour stained finish. Note on the front panel with the HMV decal it is still intact. There are also traces of it to the underside of the motor-board. Whilst the winding handle isn't an HMV type, it has a slotted end which matches the winding arbor fitted to the motor.

The motor is a double-spring which for the usual UK market version (itself, not exactly common), would ordinarily date the machine to the Great War period, especially 1915-16. However, I suspect this machine is much younger than that, maybe even late 1920's? However, I do believe the moldings are all original and correct but it has had a hard life with many obvious repairs and infill strips glued on to it following heavy knocks and damage. I think the horn is a much later "reproduction" and yes, the elbow also has nothing to do with an Intermediate Monarch or any other Monarch for that matter. It would be interesting to see if the ends of the horn and elbow appear to have been cut-down or altered in any way to form the correct tapers as they do appear to fit together very well. Certainly the connection between both is far more typical of Swiss / German machines than the HMV / Victor patent.

I've asked the seller about obtaining additional photos but so far received no reply.

[Steve]

Listing updated. The horn has a continental type fitting and looks like a modern repro to me, with apparently "faked age" in places. I have no idea what's happened to the back-bracket though. Is it a new casting? Is it simply rusted and stripped of nickel? It's certainly very pitted anyway. Pass!

[Steve]

Whilst the seller has been quite happy so far to engage with me and provide extra photos, it has been a little frustrating that he hasn't yet provided some "key" photos I've requested several times. I'm curious about the elbow where it sits inside the bracket - is it a cut-down elbow or has there been a piece added or does this metric continental elbow fit exactly into an imperial sized HMV slot-in bracket?

It's a great pity the original case finish has been heavily compromised. It's a very patchy looking case now.

So what do you make of it anyway, Jamie?

[jamiegramo]

I agree with your assessment Steve.

The bracket has likely been sand-blasted to remove heavy rust. The elbow’s fitting looks like it has been filed down to fit inside the bracket.

A pity the horn isn’t a better reproduction as these have value but this has been drilled out for continental fitting and has lead solder infilling which has deep scratching presumably to remove the surplus solder after application.

[Steve]

I agree with your assessment Steve.

The bracket has likely been sand-blasted to remove heavy rust. The elbow’s fitting looks like it has been filed down to fit inside the bracket.

A pity the horn isn’t a better reproduction as these have value but this has been drilled out for continental fitting and has lead solder infilling which has deep scratching presumably to remove the surplus solder after application.

That's interesting. I hadn't given much thought to the idea that a more accurate reproduction horn with stud at the narrow end for a standard HMV elbow, might have been drilled out to form the angled slot, more typically used on continental horns. That is a fair assessment, although the slot looks to be quite carefully cut.

In conclusion, it's an original teak Indian "No. 2" (originally Intermediate Monarch) with a partially stripped case, replacement winding handle to fit replaced arbor, replacement continental style Exhibition soundbox (anonymous German manufacture), repro brass horn which has been repaired and modified to suit continental elbow which has been filed down to fit an HMV back-bracket that has been sand blasted to remove rust. Not bad at all.

The funny thing is it's £400 and for someone who just wants a decorative piece to safely play a few 78s on and isn't concerned with historical accuracy you could do a lot worse. You won't see that horn any day soon and it is basically a rare version of an HMV machine from India, albeit modified with mainly vintage parts but crucially, it is not a Crapophone.

The seller has stopped short of replying to me with photos showing the LHS of the case (which I suspect is the ugliest side with the poor removal of finish) and the end of the elbow, which might be filed down. I didn't want to be suspicious of the seller but now I am.

I was informed that the previous owner was a lady who had owned it for over 50 years. I am reminded of an ad I responded to back in the early 90s for a gramophone. The lady on the phone insisted it had belonged to her grandfather for over 70 years - this was before the internet so no photos could be shared other than by post - as it was just a 40 minute journey by car I went to look at it, only to find a Crapophone with cheap brass horn. I spotted it from the front door as soon as she opened it, politely declined to go in and turned on my heels and left. She could not believe that anyone could tell a reproduction from so far away!

[Steve]

Over 300 page lookers resulted in just 11 watchers and not one bid / offer tendered. Says it all really.

[JeffR1]

The price now shows £407.18 from £4000.00 ???

[Steve]

The price now shows £407.18 from £4000.00 ???

No, it's always been £407.18, the actual start price / asking price - you can waltz into the seller's shop and purchase it for the same sum - is £395 but Ebay has this completely unnecessary and confusing new system now that inflates the price by 4% to cover "Buyer's Protection". In other words there isn't any free protection anymore from Ebay but it's provided by an outside underwriter who any of us could go to voluntarily if we wanted it but Ebay forces the issue and cost upon us.

[jamiegramo]

Steve thanks for your input. The machine is back up for sale again. I agree better value than a crapophone but not really cheap enough.

The lead solder infilling on the horn may be to make the horn airtight which suggests a level of attention to detail not given to a recent copy although the finishing (scratching) is poor. The photos seem to suggest the horn is not Senior Monarch size. Were it not for the elbow arrangement one could wonder if it was a period Indian made horn made for the machine. I have often wondered if brass MG’s lasted longer in India than Europe.