Coin Op Gramophone restoration

[poodling around]

I am restoring a 10 pfennig coin op internal horn gramophone and there are many things that are different on the motor and machine to anything else I have ever seen.

The slot for the coins is on the side of the machine, not on the top motorboard.

I have many questions to ask as the restoration progresses (mainly like: "What is this" ?) and hope that some-one will know the answers.

The first question I would like to ask is about the 'non-return spring'.

With reference to the photograph below, these are my questions:

A) Does the left hand wire just go into the hole marked '1' ?

B) Does the right hand wire go into the hole marked '2' ?

C) If so, the what is the piece of metal marked '3' for ? This item can rotate freely, even though the big screw seems fully tightened. There is a small 'rod' sticking out which does not quite reach hole (1'). The reverse side of this is completely flat.

It is a miracle by the way, but the spring still works !

Thank you very much for any help with these initial questions.

[JerryVan]

The wire does not belong there at all. It's a feeble attempt at creating a non-return spring to compensate for a missing ratchet wheel. Piece #3 would be the pawl for that missing ratchet. The pin sticking out of the #3 pawl would have a spring attached to it and possibly attached at the other end to #2. This would keep the pawl in contact with the ratchet.

[poodling around]

The wire does not belong there at all. It's a feeble attempt at creating a non-return spring to compensate for a missing ratchet wheel. Piece #3 would be the pawl for that missing ratchet. The pin sticking out of the #3 pawl would have a spring attached to it and possibly attached at the other end to #2. This would keep the pawl in contact with the ratchet.

Thank you very much Jerry - very interesting indeed.

If that is correct then what are the holes ('1' and '2') for on each side I wonder ?

I think I know what you mean,maybe, like the very early HMV / Victor motors from 1900's / 1910's ?

However, this would of course be a European motor from around 1929 ish ?

So ..........

[JerryVan]

Hole #1: I have no ideas about. Hole #2: I've already mentioned.

Forgive me for speaking in "absolutes". I am forming my advice from the clues you present, coupled with "common practice". We can't ignore the ratchet pawl, so we must assume it was used on conjunction with a ratchet wheel. It's possible, I suppose that Hole #1 indeed held a "click spring" for the pawl, and that #2 was for something completely unrelated.

[poodling around]

Hole #1: I have no ideas about. Hole #2: I've already mentioned.

Forgive me for speaking in "absolutes". I am forming my advice from the clues you present, coupled with "common practice". We can't ignore the ratchet pawl, so we must assume it was used on conjunction with a ratchet wheel. It's possible, I suppose that Hole #1 indeed held a "click spring" for the pawl, and that #2 was for something completely unrelated.

I see what you mean.

So where would the ratchet wheel be attached and how ? (Sorry if you have already mentioned this).

[JerryVan]

Hole #1: I have no ideas about. Hole #2: I've already mentioned.

Forgive me for speaking in "absolutes". I am forming my advice from the clues you present, coupled with "common practice". We can't ignore the ratchet pawl, so we must assume it was used on conjunction with a ratchet wheel. It's possible, I suppose that Hole #1 indeed held a "click spring" for the pawl, and that #2 was for something completely unrelated.

I see what you mean.

So where would the ratchet wheel be attached and how ? (Sorry if you have already mentioned this).

To my thinking, the ratchet wheel would be mounted on the winding shaft. Not being able to see the area of the shaft between the motor frame and what appears to be a larger diameter sleeve, however, I can't speculate on how it may have been attached.

Forgive the super-crude depiction, , but I think it gets the point across...

[poodling around]

Hole #1: I have no ideas about. Hole #2: I've already mentioned.

Forgive me for speaking in "absolutes". I am forming my advice from the clues you present, coupled with "common practice". We can't ignore the ratchet pawl, so we must assume it was used on conjunction with a ratchet wheel. It's possible, I suppose that Hole #1 indeed held a "click spring" for the pawl, and that #2 was for something completely unrelated.

I see what you mean.

So where would the ratchet wheel be attached and how ? (Sorry if you have already mentioned this).

To my thinking, the ratchet wheel would be mounted on the winding shaft. Not being able to see the area of the shaft between the motor frame and what appears to be a larger diameter sleeve, however, I can't speculate on how it may have been attached.

Forgive the super-crude depiction, , but I think it gets the point across...


ratchet.png

Very good - thank you very much for explaining this so well for me. I certainly see what you mean.

However, it was also common practice for many 1920's UK / European motors to have a similar non-return spring to the one on my motor. Thick wire, wound around etc and attached to the sides.

Do ratchet pawls have the very small rod sticking out sometimes I wonder ? (As seen in the photograph near the number '3'). If so, what would this be for ?

Well, certainly some things to think about.

Thanks again.

[JerryVan]

Do ratchet pawls have the very small rod sticking out sometimes I wonder ? (As seen in the photograph near the number '3'). If so, what would this be for ?

The pin could be for one of two things. It could be the attachment point for a spring. The spring would hold the pawl against the ratchet wheel and help it engage when winding is done. (This would result in a "clickety clack" sound while winding) Or it could be for a device that lifts the pawl away from the ratchet wheel during winding, then pushes the pawl down against the ratchet wheel when the crank begins to reverse. (This would allow the winding process to be silent) Honestly, it's a bit difficult to describe that style.

However, it was also common practice for many 1920's UK / European motors to have a similar non-return spring to the one on my motor. Thick wire, wound around etc and attached to the sides.

Yes. It was common practice in the US as well.

[Sidewinder]

It may help in the quest to find an answer if you post a picture of the whole machine. By doing so someone may recognise the coin-op machine and as a second step look at the motor.

[Roaring20s]

Jerry is on the right track.

This will get you going ...
https://www.bolha.com/ostali-aparati-um ... as-5789540

Buy it or copy those photos before it's gone!

James.

I saved the motor images for you ...