quest for an acoustic vynil recorder

[aidan]

hi all.

im on a quest to aquire an acoustic, non-electric, vynil recorder.

some say they dont exist. i may be naive but im also determined.

it could be an old one or a modern / modified version.

quality, fixability, and modern format would all be a dream.

but mainly i just want it to work.

is there anyone out there who could be a sell me one?

is there anyone out there who could fix or modify one if i managed to aquire one?

thanks for reading.

[Phototone]

Well, first, there never has been an acoustic "vinyl" recorder, as recording directly to "vinyl" is a very new technique, used for dub-plates.

Traditional recording, first acoustical/mechanical, then later electric was done on wax blanks, and later on acetate blanks.

In the era of commercial acoustical recording (circa 1888-1930) the disc recording apparatus was proprietary technology, and the machines, particularly the cutter head were closely guarded secrets by the record making companies. They made most equipment "in-house" and even manufactured their own cutting stylus. No original lateral disc recording on wax could be played back without destroying the recording, the wax recording was electroplated to make stampers for making finished records in shellac compounds. No acoustical recording apparatus for flat lateral disc records is known to me, and most manufacturers scrapped their acoustical equipment by 1930 at the latest.

All that being said, home, or personal recording on cylinder records using purely acoustical/mechanical methods was quite possible and the major machine makers (Columbia and Edison) sold the recorder heads and blanks to the public to do so. Wax Cylinder recordings CAN be played back on vintage machines with suitable reproducer. But cylinder record making is not the question you asked.

There WERE some very primitive attachments for home gramophones to allow a person to "attempt" to make a recording, but they were very primitive and really not much more than a novelty, not suitable for any sort of realistic recording. Acoustical recording required constant tinkering and adjustment in a recording studio/lab environment to get acceptable quality.

[beat_truck]

In the late 30's and 40's several companies such as Wilcox Gay made consumer grade record cutters, but they were electric, and did not record on vinyl. They recorded on acetate covered cardboard or aluminum discs. They were not exactly high fidelity recordings were too delicate to be played on acoustic machines.

Josh

[syncopeter]

Recording directly onto vinyl is impossible in my view, due to the elastic properties of the material. Unless you have a very sharp cutting stylus and a relatively rough groove, the result will always be extremely poor. So-called acetates were often treated with chemicals after recording to make them more durable for play back.
Before the introduction of tape, the result of a session often could only be evaluated after a number of tests had been pressed from the original wax. The more affluent studios sometimes had two cutting tables recording simultaneously, one for recording, the other for listening back. It wasn't until the advent of lacquer records for cutting master recordings that instant play-back and re-recording was possible (in the U.S. in the late 1930s, in Europe post-WWII).

[Phototone]

Recording directly onto vinyl is impossible in my view, due to the elastic properties of the material. Unless you have a very sharp cutting stylus and a relatively rough groove, the result will always be extremely poor. So-called acetates were often treated with chemicals after recording to make them more durable for play back.
.

There ARE modern VINYL recording lathes, for making one-at-a-time vinyl records that can be played back just like pressed records. Yes it requires special stylus and electronics.
Here is an example of one such device:

http://vinylrecorder.com/

[Lucius1958]

The nearest thing I've seen to an acoustic "vinyl" recorder are those recent Japanese toy phonographs that are supposed to record on the surface of plastic cups; they're sort of interesting, but the result is pretty poor.

-Bill

[aidan]

Wow. huge thanks to you all for your help. very kind. and of course, informative.

i have found a couple examples of recording gramophones which are probably what Phototone referred to as 'novelty' attatchments above (see links below for the acoustograph and neophone examples) and i wondered if these designs could be modified or taken further to get any kind of quality recording.

Does anyone here have any experience with these kind of machines? how they work? if they could ever be acquired and/or theoretically modified? perhaps they could be improved with modern juxtapositions?

i would ideally like to record with an acoustic device onto a disc that could be played on a modern record player. I wonder if using different materials, and modifying gramophone speeds could somehow achieve this.

i realise that i must seem very naive. i actually am. im totally dreaming here. but you gotta dream, right?

anyway, thanks again to everyone for your help so far...

'neophone home recording device' c 1906
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QkTzIzz ... re=related
http://78rpmrecord.com/neophone.htm

Acoustograph Recording Portable Gramophone c 1933
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUR8NnYmIbI

[Phototone]

Wow. huge thanks to you all for your help. very kind. and of course, informative.

i have found a couple examples of recording gramophones which are probably what Phototone referred to as 'novelty' attatchments above (see links below for the acoustograph and neophone examples) and i wondered if these designs could be modified or taken further to get any kind of quality recording.

Does anyone here have any experience with these kind of machines? how they work? if they could ever be acquired and/or theoretically modified? perhaps they could be improved with modern juxtapositions?

i would ideally like to record with an acoustic device onto a disc that could be played on a modern record player. I wonder if using different materials, and modifying gramophone speeds could somehow achieve this.

i realise that i must seem very naive. i actually am. im totally dreaming here. but you gotta dream, right?

anyway, thanks again to everyone for your help so far...

'neophone home recording device' c 1906
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QkTzIzz ... re=related
http://78rpmrecord.com/neophone.htm

Acoustograph Recording Portable Gramophone c 1933
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUR8NnYmIbI

Those devices were never successful, really, and even if developed a bit further would never be able to equal the quality of studio made acoustical recordings. Plus, the blank discs intended for their use are non-existent. Neither could record on vinyl. The only disc recorders capable of recording directly onto vinyl are the modern "dub-plate" type that use an electronic cutter-head that has a very special, expensive, heated stylus that more or less instantly softens the vinyl by heat as the groove is cut. I gave a link to one in my previous post.

If you truly want to make listenable acoustic recordings, you should acquire a vintage Edison cylinder player and a rebuilt recorder head with a fresh cutting stylus. New brown wax recording blanks are made by at least a couple of vendors. It is an art-form to get good acoustic recordings.

Something you should remember is that Studio made acoustic recordings (except for cylinders) were never intended for direct playback, and were not played back, as they were cut in soft wax masters, and were used to make electroplated masters in metal, from which electroplated metal stampers were made. The recording technician examined the cut grooves under a microscope to determine if the recording was good. The success of lateral acoustic recording was the use of a very soft material, as the energy from just the sound hitting the diaphragm of an acoustical recorder head is very weak. This means the master recording is too soft to be played back without ruining the recording.

[alang]

I just read a thread on a German Gramophone forum which discussed this type of machine. It seems like there were some available that would allow to record onto some kind of vinyl disc with a recording head and cutting needles and then allow to replay them with a different head (reproducer). The owner of one of the machines discussed claims that it was used by the tone engineer of famous German film maker Leni Riefenstahl. Sounds like the machines were made by Telefunken. Here is a link to the thread. It's in German language, but the pictures might be interesting for some.
http://grammophon-platten.de/e107_plugi ... c.php?44.0
Andreas

[Phototone]

I just read a thread on a German Gramophone forum which discussed this type of machine. It seems like there were some available that would allow to record onto some kind of vinyl disc with a recording head and cutting needles and then allow to replay them with a different head (reproducer). The owner of one of the machines discussed claims that it was used by the tone engineer of famous German film maker Leni Riefenstahl. Sounds like the machines were made by Telefunken. Here is a link to the thread. It's in German language, but the pictures might be interesting for some.
http://grammophon-platten.de/e107_plugi ... c.php?44.0
Andreas

The link you give depicts early ELECTRIC disc recorders, not ACOUSTIC/MECHANICAL recorders. It is not rare to find a home Electronic audio disc recorder that cuts acetate blanks, which CAN be played back on conventional ELECTRONIC turntables. The recordings are still too soft (in surface) to withstand the wear and weight of acoustical playback, nor are they made with ACOUSTICAL recording methods. (Horn driving the cutting stylus).

The OP wanted an acoustic/mechanical vinyl disc recording device that could make an ACOUSTICAL recording that could be played back on modern turntables. (which doesn't exist).

Almost everybody that collects machines and records has run across a "home recorder" at one time or another that will record audio onto a ACETATE lacquer coated aluminum blank disc, using a Microphone and Electronic cutter. Acetate is not Vinyl, nor can Acetate blank be cut successfully by acoustic methods as there is too much resistance for successful results. The technology for successful recording on acetate blanks didn't get developed until after the acoustic recording era. (Mid 1930's). When there were light weight pickups that could play back the recordings without destroying them.

The only successful, fairly practical acoustic recording one can acquire the equipment to do is with Cylinder records. Recording on brown wax cylinder blanks (which are available, but expensive). These can be played back because the cylinder player uses a round non-sharp playback stylus which does minimal damage on playback. Of course this is outside the realm of the OP question.