Correct speed for Ambrose's "Dance Little Lady"

[bart1927]

I've been transferring some of my 78's to my computer and I'm trying to transfer them at the right speed. Now I'm having a problem with "Dance Little Lady", played by Ambrose and his Orchestra.

At 78.26 rpm it is way off key!
https://www.box.com/s/472bdbb5c10a2830cb3e

So the question is whether it should be sped up or slowed down.

It sounds more or less right at 80.65 rpm, but maybe a little fast. I believe the piece is now in B (I took some music lessons as a kid, but that was really long ago).
https://www.box.com/s/0dbf92b27947b3982097

But I once read (don't know if it's true) that it's an absolute nightmare for a saxophone to play in B, and that therefore B-flat is much more likely.

So I slowed down the speed to 76.1 rpm, and now it's a semitone lower.
https://www.box.com/s/b775c111d0c87b1754e6


What do you think? Which one is right?

[scullylathe]

OK, a few things here. First, what label is the recording on? A lot of European labels (especially HMV) were notorious for recording at different speeds even when 78 was supposed to be "standard". I have examples of HMV's that have speeds other than 78 printed on the label. Second, do you have a copy of the score? How do you know what the key is 'supposed' to be? "Sounding" off key is a perceptual thing - do you have perfect pitch? The only way to know exactly where the pitch should be is to know 1) what key the arrangement was written in and 2) at exactly what speed was the disc was recorded. There has been a lot of debate over classical recordings from the acoustic era being reproduced at the right speed and therefore the "correct" pitch. This is possible to decipher because classical scores are readily available and then you only need to know what tuning was used since 'A' has varied from 415hZ to 440hZ over the years. Dance band arrangements are largely not available or have been lost so it's difficult to come up with an exact reference as to the key for any particular tune. Piano sheet music of popular tunes of the era aren't much help because they're not necessarily in the same key as a given recording of the same tune. Add to the mix that popular recording stars even in the classical era like Caruso would occasionally have arias transposed down for more comfortable singing, so even classical recordings can be 'fudged' as to their "original key".

It's an interesting pursuit, though, since pitch was "recommended" to be standardized at A440 in 1936, but it wasn't until the mid 1950's that it was generally accepted. Dance bands playing in the teens, 20's and early 30's may have been tuning to A415, A435 or another 'A' standard. Just my $.02

[bart1927]

OK, a few things here. First, what label is the recording on? A lot of European labels (especially HMV) were notorious for recording at different speeds even when 78 was supposed to be "standard". I have examples of HMV's that have speeds other than 78 printed on the label. Second, do you have a copy of the score? How do you know what the key is 'supposed' to be? "Sounding" off key is a perceptual thing - do you have perfect pitch? The only way to know exactly where the pitch should be is to know 1) what key the arrangement was written in and 2) at exactly what speed was the disc was recorded. There has been a lot of debate over classical recordings from the acoustic era being reproduced at the right speed and therefore the "correct" pitch. This is possible to decipher because classical scores are readily available and then you only need to know what tuning was used since 'A' has varied from 415hZ to 440hZ over the years. Dance band arrangements are largely not available or have been lost so it's difficult to come up with an exact reference as to the key for any particular tune. Piano sheet music of popular tunes of the era aren't much help because they're not necessarily in the same key as a given recording of the same tune. Add to the mix that popular recording stars even in the classical era like Caruso would occasionally have arias transposed down for more comfortable singing, so even classical recordings can be 'fudged' as to their "original key".

It's an interesting pursuit, though, since pitch was "recommended" to be standardized at A440 in 1936, but it wasn't until the mid 1950's that it was generally accepted. Dance bands playing in the teens, 20's and early 30's may have been tuning to A415, A435 or another 'A' standard. Just my $.02

This is a british recording issued on British HMV in 1928. I don't have perfect pitch, but I have a keyboard, so I usually just play along with the music. I transferred the recording at 78 rpm, and when I tried to play along it just sounded wrong.

I sped up the recording until it sounded right, which was at about 80.6. But that also means it sounds right at 76.1. I used this pitch correction calculator: http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Pitch.htm

As you can see, 4.5 rpm's equal one semitone. This means that my recording has to be played at either 76.1 or 80.6. Theoretically it could also be 71.6 or 85.1, but that is higly unlikely.

If I'm not mistaken, if I play the song at 80.6, it's in B. At 76.1, it's B-flat. I don't know in what key the arrangement was written, but I would guess it's either B or B-flat

[Lenoirstreetguy]

A little piano technician talk here....A 440hz was generally the standard pitch in North America by the 1920's. Steinway "scaled" ( which is piano technician-ese for " designed" ) their instruments to be tuned at 440 hz by the 1880's, which I suspect is why it became more or less general in New York after the turn of the century and spread out from there. My oldest set of matched forks which was given to me by an old gent whose grandfather was a tuner before 1930 is at 440: virtually exactly, which makes me stand in awe of the methods they used to standardize pitch before the electronic era. ( Helmholtz resonators.) I've quoted the story from Andre Benoist's memoirs from the time that he was touring with Lillian Nordica the famous American soprano. In 1908< when they toured together, she was past the first blush of youth, and was beginning to feel the strain of those top notes. Consequently she specified in her contract that the piano was to be tuned to A 435..the low,( or French or International ) pitch. Benoist was sent to check the piano's pitch before the concert and his story of how all hell broke loose when she found that ..horror of horrors...the piano was at 440 is very amusing. But it shows indeed that even at that early date she had to make SURE the piano was tuned at the old low pitch, which implies that an significant number of tuners were using A 440.
All of this begs the question as to whether a singer can actually TELL if the piano was 5 hz sharper or lower: it would take a fine ear indeed.
Jim