A question about cylinder blanks for recording

[edisonphonoworks]

This kind of shows that on regular metallic soap blanks that it makes a deep cut, and notice the swarf is a continuous chip. This is a working Edison studio recording attachment, and I have recorded 14 customer recordings with it so far.

[Phototone]

Shaun, I think you are thinking I am "running down" your methods cylinder making and of recording, which I am most certainly not. I am just hoping to discuss and shed more light on the very secretive practices used in the recording studios to get the results they did, particularly the diamond disc process.

It stands to reason, in my opinion, that the softer the recording surface, the less resistance to the cutter would be presented, thus recording the most overtones. If this is on a blank, or wax disc platter that is too soft for playback, it wouldn't matter, as it would still hold up for plating. You HAVE to make a blank hard enough for playback. You are not into plating and moulding duplicate cylinders. I don't think the actual "weight" of the cutter would be an issue, as the whole weight of the cutter does not have to ride on the wax blank.

[tinovanderzwan]

the mentioning of soap in the edison papers goes from 1905 to the 1910s and manny times
this was no experimental flux like the chocolate
edison used pure gold to electolize his cylinders a downside to this is gold is soft after a thick layer of copper galvinized on the gold layer the cyl needed to be extracted breaking the cyl would damage the fragile gold layer heating the mould to the melting point of wax could cause the 2 layers to separate and molten wax is a good lub wich would separate the gold from the copper even more
because edison couln't use the lambert graphite method that f.i. the vulcan boys use today he din't have a uni-metal mould he had a bi-metal mould and the expanding properties of gold are quite different from that of copper too much expansion of the copper mould f.i. by heat or cold could tear the gold layer to pieces resulting in noise in the final cast
with the blue amberols edison dit use a uni-metal mould so regular caustic blanks where used
the soap used is of a very pure quality without all the added materials used in the commercial soap production
normal soap has a fair amount of chalk and wax in it to prevent it from melting and desolving in water pure water soluble soap doesn't have this and it will desolve very quickly
the add-ons in commercial soap also explain the poor resulds you had with your experiments shawn too much particulate mattter

pure soap is hard to come by these days but on multiple sites its sold as solid shampoo because if you ad water the surface turns into a slimy syrup just like shampoo




tino

[edisonphonoworks]

What you mean by pure soap, is regular lye soap. I can get some and try that, it might work. YOu have to go through the process of making a hard record from the mould to see how they came out. Has anyone recently made a master from a lye soap (not confused with brown wax cylinder soap.) I am just skeptical from experience, I won't believe it until I have positive results. They were making Gold Moulded process castings of cylinders as early as 1888, and they were using regular "white wax" formula for those, and then in then about 1894 the Wurths and Dr S were already moulding cylinders with masters made from common brown wax using the Gold Moulded method.

[tinovanderzwan]

regular soap has aditives pure soap doesn't so the material is more homogeneous
if i where you i would try to find recipies of different types of soap and make them yourself
oils of different types of plants are used i'm not a soap maker but iv'e seen it done its quite a magical thing
i think the web has some awnsers on that question

try to find the makers recept for solid shampoo and experiment

i don't know everything i just note the facts the edison papers tell me its now your quest to see if they really speak the truth

[edisonphonoworks]

I have some of the Wurth experiments with early gold moulding masters and yes, even chocolate was tried. I will have to order some of that soap and try it. Has anyone found complete recorders like mine? It seems all have something missing, when found and it would be neat to find one with the dampening and diaphragm still in place. There was some that were aluminum with inserts and I think that those inserts were for some kind of diaphragm that was thin and plastic like and pulled taught to make a more sensitive diaphragm.

[edisonphonoworks]

Notice how the studio recorder makes a continuous un-broken cut in the blank this is a standard brown wax formula, that when on a regular home recorder makes a powdered shaving with the same blank. The recorder is so sensitive, it will record a phone conversation on a standard speakerphone from 6" away, and be easily understood during playback. Also similar to a ribbon microphone, when you get too close to the horn it has bass tip up on the lower part of the voice, and when you speak about 4" from the horn, it records an even clear voice sound, very natural, and crisp. I have also the formula for Vocalian master wax, which has the same ingredients as Edison Diamond Disc master wax, I have both a UK and Australian formula, and is a lead soap.

[Phototone]

If you were making a master for plating and molding, you would have to have a slightly different pitch to the lead screw, to account for shrinkage in the duplicates.

[tinovanderzwan]

shawn do you also own a unit to digitize cylinders?
if you do i would love to play with one of your recordings using my sound editor

[edisonphonoworks]

I hope to make a long tone arm and use that. I used to have an Edisonia with a Stanton 500 but it is lost in New York. I miss it, as it would be what I would play my recordings back If I had one still. What I do right now is use an M- audio microphone, that goes with pro tools or Audacity and mic a 5' horn. Not as good as a pickup, but a higher quality than using a dynamic. Here is past experiments with transcribing cylinders. Some of these are live cylinders I did at Madison Square Garden and have more bass than I ever heard on an acoustic recording.

http://youtu.be/uPUsxSY_AbY?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Using an M-Audio condenser microphone.

http://youtu.be/rDdghezNluI?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA M-Audio condenser microphone. Audio recorded with Audacity.

http://youtu.be/MhqB_HNrDbM?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Transcribed about 2003 with Edisonia pickup.

http://youtu.be/q7PpA0kuSNY?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Transcribed about 2003 With Edisonia pickup (Stanton with 4 minute stylus)

http://youtu.be/CecZNJjgH7Y?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Edisonia Pickup 2003

http://youtu.be/1091bqnnbzU?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA (One of my original live concert recordings Small Appliances recorded from a Pink Borri record using Columbia Melzer formula, picked up with the Edisonia.

http://youtu.be/4IN2kMZgkCg Slick Rick Lodi Dodi We Like to Party recorded Live at Madison Square garden in New York using a rice paper diaprhagm and silicone gaskets. Probably the lowest frequencies recorded with an acoustic recorder on a wax cylinder from alive venue. Edisonia electric pickup.
http://youtu.be/xmyudxPaVWs?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Ramblin Man recorded at madison Square Garden.

http://youtu.be/tJDcb-voJiI?list=UUPMPb ... YWEVp--pcA Early 2000 electrically recorded test cylinder, recorded with a Fairchild lathe head driving Edison early style recorder. Electric driver, driven by 6l6 tubes and Western Electric amp and voice with RCA 44bx microphone, direct microphone recording. Playback though was with a C reproducer to a cheap computer condenser microphone, the little gooseneck microphones available back in 2000 for computers.