What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel needles?

Discussions on Talking Machines & Accessories
User avatar
Cody K
Victor III
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:03 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Cody K »

...how often do you wash your records after the initial cleaning, and do you brush them after each play with a record brush?
Hi Mike -- Since I was the one banging on most in this thread about clean records, I'll answer that. In my opinion, the most important cleaning is the one that I do when I first get the record. That's when a record whose hygienic history isn't known gets a fresh start, so to speak. Someone in the thread (was it Larry?) pointed out that people didn't obsess about keeping these records clean when they were new. That's true, and it's the problem. Add to that seventy or eighty years of varying storage conditions in basements, attics, and barns, often in uncovered boxes, and it's almost inevitable that some very fine, hard grit is going to find a place in a record's groove. This was brought home to me with some force recently when I received the Harmony record (which I mentioned in another thread) from an eBay seller with years of experience. He had apparently play-graded it and recommended it in the listing as "a great player". But when I got it, it was unusually filthy, with a reddish dust embedded in the grooves that suggested to me that it had been stored, uncovered, in an old brick basement. I know that dust well, as my own 125-year-old house has a basement that, over time, deposits a thing film of brick dust on anything neglected long down there.

I cleaned that record well, in a half-dozen passes, and by the time I was done I was nearly astonished by how much dirt was left on the cloth I'd used. And I was sorry that the seller hadn't taken the time to clean it before playing it, because that kind of hard, gritty dirt, when a needle passes over it, is going to scuff up the interior of the groove and degrade performance. And this particular record has sustained the kind of damage that increases distortion and background noise tremendously. It looks better now that it's clean, but while it looks comparable to my other Harmony records, it plays more poorly than any of them. Every time I play it I'll hear the dirt that isn't there anymore. This was a fairly radical case of damage that could easily have been prevented.

So, one very thorough cleaning to start. After that I rarely have to clean a record unless it's really showing dust. Though I scoffed at first at the idea that one rag is better than another, I've been convinced by my friend Jeff (Woonetophone on the forum) to use micro-fiber cloths, the kind you can buy in a bundle at the auto-parts store, for cleaning records. They're really very good on records. I also use a "secret" concoction that Jeff dreamed up for cleaning records that's mostly water, combined with what he tells me is a common household cleaning agent, but apparently not dish soap. I think a mild dilution of dish soap in water, sprayed onto the cloth, works very well, but Jeff's solution is absolutely great, leaving records with a squeaky-clean feel to them. I keep telling him he should be selling it.

My method is to take a micro-fiber cloth, fold it into halves or thirds, and sort of roll it up until it's about the size and shape of one of the old oblong velvet record brushes. I spray the cleaning solution onto the cloth; Jeff sprays it directly onto the record -- we disagree on that little detail, because I think that a damp cloth gives more uniform coverage to the groove. But either way will work. I put the record on a flat surface with something protective (usually just paper) under it, and scrub, going with the groove, rolling the cloth to an unused portion and repeating the process as many times as it takes to get the cloth to show no stain on the last go-round. Other people use different pet methods, including washing records under running water and drying them in a dish drainer, but the above is what really works well for me.

Uncle Vanya's right (as per usual) about the importance of replacing hardened gaskets and flanges. A year ago, having two reproducers that were performing very well without rebuilding, I asked the forum whether there was really any need to rebuild them -- http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... be+rebuilt -- and I was persuaded as to the necessity of doing so. Though I never have rebuilt the Columbia soundbox, I did rebuild every other one in the house, and I'm glad I did. I can't say that the No. 2 that I was so pleased with in its un-rebuilt state sounds any better to me, but it produces virtually no black dust, depending of course on the condition of the record. Sean made what I felt was the most persuasive point:
You're risking record damage otherwise whether you actually see it or not. To me, it isn't worth the risk of damaging my records when for a few bucks in materials and a little time, you can minimize that risk.
He's written elsewhere, and others have mentioned it too, that the balance of those leetle springs under what I still (ignorantly, I guess -- what is the correct term?) call the torsion bar, are of major importance when fine-tuning a reproducer, so I've learned to pay special attention to those, too.

Edited to add: WOW! You took your pictures with a camera phone and a jeweler's loupe? I seriously had thought hmmm...somebody has a nice macro lens! Great job!
"Gosh darn a Billiken anyhow."- Uncle Josh Weathersby

User avatar
Player-Tone
Victor II
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Player-Tone »

Thank you for the detailed information on cleaning records, I will give that method a try and see how it turns out.

... There may have been some miscommunication about the gaskets, the reproducers have been fully rebuilt with new diaphragm gaskets and new flange gaskets, along with proper balancing of the springs. The problem is just that those new flange gaskets are made of pretty dense rubber despite being brand new. This is what I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-Victrola ... 5413339e3e
-Mike

Uncle Vanya
Victor IV
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:53 pm
Location: Michiana

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Uncle Vanya »

Player-Tone wrote:Thank you for the detailed information on cleaning records, I will give that method a try and see how it turns out.

... The problem is just that those new flange gaskets are made of pretty dense rubber despite being brand new. This is what I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-Victrola ... 5413339e3e
Although the isolator is new, it is still not right as far as record wear is concerned. You need a soft rubber unit. You may make one yourself, using EDPM (rubber) roofing lap seam cement. The folks who make the new rubber isolators and rubber backs for Exhibition reproducers apparently don't play their machines.

User avatar
Retrograde
Victor III
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:47 pm

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Retrograde »

Uncle Vanya wrote:Although the isolator is new, it is still not right as far as record wear is concerned. You need a soft rubber unit. You may make one yourself, using EDPM (rubber) roofing lap seam cement. The folks who make the new rubber isolators and rubber backs for Exhibition reproducers apparently don't play their machines.
which begs the question, Why don't the folks who make them use softer material and save us all a lot grief and anguish over trying to make our own out of something foreign to phonographs?

Uncle Vanya
Victor IV
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:53 pm
Location: Michiana

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Uncle Vanya »

Retrograde wrote:
Uncle Vanya wrote:Although the isolator is new, it is still not right as far as record wear is concerned. You need a soft rubber unit. You may make one yourself, using EDPM (rubber) roofing lap seam cement. The folks who make the new rubber isolators and rubber backs for Exhibition reproducers apparently don't play their machines.
which begs the question, Why don't the folks who make them use softer material and save us all a lot grief and anguish over trying to make our own out of something foreign to phonographs?
Because many of the suppliers are used to the old-time collectors, who were cheap, and who never really played their machines seriously. I remember one supplier who milled up Exhibition "rubber backs" out of STEEL! Needless to say, machines fitted with these backs wore records terribly and sounded simply awful

User avatar
Player-Tone
Victor II
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Player-Tone »

Who makes them anyway? Do all the supplier reproductions come from the same place?
-Mike

Shlomo
Victor Jr
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 pm

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by Shlomo »

I own two machines, a VV 2-55 Orthophonic portable, and a vv-ix tabletop with an Exhibition soundbox . As far as black needle dust goes, the exhibition produces very little generally. But the Orthophonic usually gets a noticeable amount of dust, comparable to the photos in the thread. The ortho soundbox was professionally built with a pliable back flange, and sounds great.

I'm not sure if the needle dust is related to the heavier Ortho soundbox, the shorter tonearm of the portable, or the smaller horn. Maybe a combination of all three. I am hesitant to use the VV 2-55 frequently for fear of excessive wear, even though I've played several records of little interest on it many many times, each time dragging up noticeable dust, without a difference in sound quality. Of course, if I played those again with an electric pickup, I'd probably hear more surface noise.

I use mostly soft tone needles, and records average v to v+.

This question is for VV 2-55 or 2-65 owners: do you see noticeable black dust on your needles after each play?
Last edited by Shlomo on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tinovanderzwan
Victor II
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:59 pm

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by tinovanderzwan »

seeing the pictures at the beginning you can see that the dust is rather spiky this means magnetism is involved during the ride through the groove the needle has become slightly magnetic picking up metal debris left behind by previous needles the other stuff is static junk like hairs/fibers (dead skin cells yuk!) and mica filler from the record
you can pick up static junk even from a cleaned record A because its stuck good in the grooves B because its all around anyway the needle riding the groove creates friction witch makes the needle slightly static in other words it becomes a dust magnet
the needle rides a track (the groove) that could be 150 to 200 meters long and only picking up this much material of witch only a small percentage is actually from the record i don't think we need to worry!

tino

bigshot
Victor II
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 7:00 pm
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.

Re: What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel need

Post by bigshot »

Are you playing records right after cleaning them? Records should be allowed to dry for 12 to 24 hours before playing them. They will wear out faster if you play them wet. Also if gunk is coming out of the grooves, you should try cleaning them with white vinegar, not soap and water. Rinse in distilled water and let it dry overnight. Bamboo and cactus needles turn records into rain gutters full of leaves. Just soap and water won't cut it.

Post Reply