C19 record repeating

[BwanaJoe]

I finally decided to post an update after playing some records last night.

The blocking trick didn't work.

I've tried pushing backward at both points, 8 and H, and neither has worked. The horn just springs back. I even tried blocking the horn in the back to keep it from shifting. No luck. The whole "holding the bottom of the reproducer to the right" thing is getting old. Plus, if it doesn't hit the teeth on the feed bar just right when it is lowered the limit pin just centers anyway.

Help, I'm stumped!

[fran604g]

Joe, maybe a silly question, but have you thoroughly examined the threads on the rack and pinion that propels the horn assembly?

Is the flat spring mounted on the horn pivot shaft (under the motor-plate) causing too much resistance against the motor-plate?

Does the reproducer always skip in the same relative place?

Fran

[BwanaJoe]

Thanks Fran, no silly questions.

I don't know if the feedrack has too much resistance as I have nothing to comapre it to, man I wish I did! But, it seems to move freely when you lift it up with your fingers.

The feed rack was the first thing adjusted. I'd have to go measure to be sure but it was fully engaging before the reprodcer was completely down in the record and ¼ inch or more above the drive.

No, the records don't repeat in the same place. I would think they would but it isn't the case. If I get the limit pin situated to the right of center when I start it JUST makes it to the end of most records without hitting the loop. In a very few cases it doesn't repeat when I would swear the pin is hitting the limit loop. If I just set down near thr starting groove and begin it will repeat eventually. Usually more than once. Very frustrating!

[fran604g]

I'm just wondering if there is some sort of resistance to the horn feeding across the record?

There should be a slight gap between the lift handle cam and the thrust washer under it on the motor-plate, when lowered into play position. I believe the manual specifies the thickness of a card, or something like that.

I'm just thinking out loud.

Fran

[BwanaJoe]

I'm just wondering if there is some sort of resistance to the horn feeding across the record?

There should be a slight gap between the lift handle cam and the thrust washer under it on the motor-plate, when lowered into play position. I believe the manual specifies the thickness of a card, or something like that.

I'm just thinking out loud.

Fran

I think I remember checking that because I wasn't sure how thick a 1919 business card should be! I think I used a couple of modern cards stacked on top of the other. I just rechecked and now I can't slide a card under it in either position. Back to adjusting...

Thanks, I'll report back.

[BwanaJoe]

So I did an inside check and it looks like the friction spring is not pointing the in the same direction as the finger as well as there being no space between the finger and washer.

So, two questions;

1) Where do you position the "business card" beneath the finger? I have the washer beneath the finger on mine. I assume the card/paper should be between the finger and the washer in this case.

and

2) When the manual talks about "having the spring pointing in the same direction as the finger (9) above it", which direction is the that? The finger is curved after all. So is it the point on the end of the finger or the beginning? It should have been obvious at the time of rebuilding but mine seems to have moved since messing with it.

Thanks,

Joe

[fran604g]

Joe,

The spring follows the same arc the safety stop finger does. If you look at the underside of the motor-plate, you will see a semi-circular (actually more of a quarter-circular) machined area that the spring contacts. The spring is responsible for applying pressure on this surface in such a manner to help ensure that the horn assembly is all the way down in position to allow for play to occur.

It should be lightly lubricated, and have only the recommended amount of tension forcing it into contact with the motor-plate.

I will compose a better post with some photos tomorrow, if that's okay with you. I just can't do that tonight.

Fran

[BwanaJoe]

Joe,

The spring follows the same arc the safety stop finger does. If you look at the underside of the motor-plate, you will see a semi-circular (actually more of a quarter-circular) machined area that the spring contacts. The spring is responsible for applying pressure on this surface in such a manner to help ensure that the horn assembly is all the way down in position to allow for play to occur.

It should be lightly lubricated, and have only the recommended amount of tension forcing it into contact with the motor-plate.

I will compose a better post with some photos tomorrow, if that's okay with you. I just can't do that tonight.

Fran

No rush Fran and thanks for the offer. I do know I never lubricated that spring contact area.

[fran604g]

Mornin' Joe!

So I did an inside check and it looks like the friction spring is not pointing the in the same direction as the finger as well as there being no space between the finger and washer.

So, two questions;

1) Where do you position the "business card" beneath the finger? I have the washer beneath the finger on mine. I assume the card/paper should be between the finger and the washer in this case.

and

2) When the manual talks about "having the spring pointing in the same direction as the finger (9) above it", which direction is the that? The finger is curved after all. So is it the point on the end of the finger or the beginning? It should have been obvious at the time of rebuilding but mine seems to have moved since messing with it.

Thanks,

Joe

1) Place an ordinary business card between the operating handle lift cam and the safety stop finger.

2) When properly adjusted, the end of the safety stop finger and the end of the friction spring should be pointing in the same direction relative to each other.

I am including an image of the upper horn pivot shaft and operating handle assembly. NOTE: the mechanism is in the UP position with the horn at its furthest RIGHT position.

Remember, this procedure is only to identify possible undue friction in the horn pivoting action. It may not correct your problem, but it should be checked, nonetheless.

*To clarify one point in my image; in the "New Edison Disc Motor" manual (it can be found elsewhere on the forum), under the section entitled "TO REMOVE MOTOR FROM CABINET"; part (7) states "Some motors have a thick washer present beneath the stop finger (9), don't lose this." I have reflected that statement in my image, but I haven't seen any B Type mechanisms without this washer.

In my image you can clearly see the "friction spring and collar" and the point on the motor-plate in which it contacts. There should be a gap between this spring and the motor-plate when the mechanism is in the PLAY position!

In the manual, under the part entitled "TO REPLACE MOTOR"; section (3) describes the procedure for adjusting the friction spring. I have included the procedure here, in my own words:

1) Make sure the motor is completely unwound to prevent possible injury or damage; remove the reproducer, and drop the mechanism into the PLAY position as is typical.

2) With the grille removed: note the friction spring position relative to the safety stop finger, and the underside of the motor-plate.

3) Loosen setscrew "D" on the friction spring collar, slide it down on the shaft, (you may have to reposition the horn to access this screw) and re-adjust it by sliding it back up the shaft until there is 1/32" between the end of the spring and the motor-plate. MAKE SURE THE SAFETY STOP FINGER AND THE FRICTION SPRING ARE POINTING IN THE SAME DIRECTION AND ARE IN-LINE RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER AT THEIR VERY ENDS.

Although the manual DOES NOT SPECIFY IT, I Lightly lubricate the surface of the spring where it contacts the motor-plate.

4) Inspect and lubricate the horn pivot shaft lower bearing, and the operating handle bearing (the washer under the safety stop finger). I apply oil to the top and bottom of the washer.

5) Using the operating handle, lift the mechanism out of PLAY.

6) Check the horn, to make sure it pivots freely by rotating the horn back and forth several times.

I hope this helps you to understand the relationship between the friction spring and motor-plate.

Best,
Fran