Why early records had 'Moiré'/raised-rims' on the surface?

[Wolfe]

The moire pattern is occasionally seen in discs of all vintages. It is usually the result of the tempo of the music being a nearly exact multiple or submultiple of the rotational speed of the record.

Wow, that's fascinating. As often, gregbogantz has got the inside scoop. Except, one question, why does the second example of the Caruso record not display this pattern? The playing wear on the surface?

[Wolfe]

By the way, anyone knows what kind of techniques they used to make a "S/8" Victor Red Seals? John Bolig and Ted Fagan explained that that is a symbol for masters made with some dubbing process. but so far, most of the S/8s were not that inferior to that of originals, and I'm sure they are not electrically dubbed.

As far as I know, S/8 was a simple acoustical dubbing process. Achieved by placing the playback horn of one machine to the recording horn of another. Not pantographic, and quite inferior to a non-dubbed original.

One well known S/8 is Caruso's Di Quella Pira from his first orchestral session of '06. The S/8 dub is garbage.

[transformingArt]

One well known S/8 is Caruso's Di Quella Pira from his first orchestral session of '06. The S/8 dub is garbage.

Ah, yes. That 1906 Di Quella Pira might be a worst example of S/8. But some of other S/8s I have dealt with was not that bad to me - such as New York Grand Opera chorus on Vla 74213 or Mischa Elman on Vla 74838 (the ones that I have).

By the way, it seems that there are no perfect explanation about the S/8 technology - John Bolig wrote several years ago ; It is possible that some form of Pantographing device was used to trace the vibrations of a needle from a record to a new wax matrix, but after a while he changed his explanation again!

The moire pattern is occasionally seen in discs of all vintages. It is usually the result of the tempo of the music being a nearly exact multiple or submultiple of the rotational speed of the record. That is, when X number of musical beats takes place during one complete revolution of the record. Particularly when there is a constant rhythmic percussion, the short wavelengths can group together in adjacent grooves which makes them become quite noticeable when visually inspected. In most records, this grouping does not occur since the musical tempo is not correlated with the rotational speed of the record and the repetitive waveforms occur randomly scattered around the record.

Your explanation is so far the best I have ever heard. Thanks for your suggestions.

[Retrograde]

How about this Record Reading Guy?

[Edisone]

I think that the pattern can also come from the recording stylus crossing the marks left by a shaving knife on the original wax. On many acoustic Brunswicks, shaving marks are quite prominent .

Sorta related: When Columbia reissued old numbers in Double Disc form, any announcement was scraped off - sometimes they missed a bit, and you can hear the last syllable !

[Wolfe]

Ah, yes. That 1906 Di Quella Pira might be a worst example of S/8. But some of other S/8s I have dealt with was not that bad to me - such as New York Grand Opera chorus on Vla 74213 or Mischa Elman on Vla 74838 (the ones that I have).

Early 20's Vla pressings are so smooth, you probably don't think you're losing much. Really quiet surfaces. Not equalled until the 'Z' series of a decade or so later, and even then...

[transformingArt]

Early 20's Vla pressings are so smooth, you probably don't think you're losing much. Really quiet surfaces. Not equalled until the 'Z' series of a decade or so later, and even then...

What do you mean "Smooth" regarding Vla surfaces? I have encountered lots of gritty Victrola pressings from mid-20s and early 30s. They looked absolutely clean, but the noise was somewhat worse than I expected (although it is much quieter than HMV pressings of the same period).

[gramophone78]

This may be a little O/T regarding the "moire". However, I have always wondered how (in this example)Berliner was able to place the HMV logo or Scribing Angel logo into the sound waves. One as to assume it was place into a blank master. However, when cut with the recording you would then think it would become disstorted. I have studied a HMV in groove that I own and the logo is almost demensional in many respects.Last, beside the HMV being present there is also Trade-Mark and His Master's Voice there.Note....this record pictired has the HMV in four places.

[Wolfe]

What do you mean "Smooth" regarding Vla surfaces? I have encountered lots of gritty Victrola pressings from mid-20s and early 30s. They looked absolutely clean, but the noise was somewhat worse than I expected

I mean, a clean unworn example of ca. 1920-21-22 ish. Some of the best pressings I own of anything that the Victor company produced. Really nice.

That's completely apart from going into the electrical era, the quality of the surfaces drops quite a bit. That goes for a scroll label just as much as a batwing reissue from that period.

But this is drifting awfully far off off topic.

[Starkton]

"The first ten Caruso records (recorded in Milan in April 1902) were selling so well that G&T figured out a solution to their problem: it appears they pressed the now-worn stampers into wax and made a fresh impression of each of them. From the new impressions, the company made a new stamper."

Carusos "Germania: Studenti Udite" (Gramo 52378) is a special case, because there are two "first" stampers. One is inscribed "a" after the matrix number, and the other one "Repro". I believe that, as a very rare exception, two shells could be taken from the wax master resulting in two identical stampers. Quite likely, the "Repro" stamper was initially held back and marked "II" for safe differentiation in the factory.