Palmodian Fake?

[Sidewinder]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/185229154600?ha ... SwwHZhxx~i

LE PALMODIAN was an idea to utilize a violin as a "soundbox"

So why would one think that this machine is fake?

[TinfoilPhono]

The real Palmodian did not have a reproducer / soundbox attached to the side of the violin. The stylus was underneath, attached to a surprisingly complex mount which was patented. That mount was adjustable from the inside to change the tension of the connector between the stylus arm and the body of the violin.

The violin did not have standard 'f' holes as on a normal violin, as shown in the eBay picture. It had two large central openings.

I attach pictures of the original Palmodian that I owned in the past. It was an amazing machine, I regret letting it go. The sound was surprisingly good, especially when I played a large Pathé disc with a violin solo. It was mind-blowing.

[Sidewinder]

Exactly!

the fake one (of which there seem to be many around) with a reproducer drilled into the side of a violin is about as logical as sticking a reproducer onto a Lumiere Diaphragm!

The whole point is that the violin is the reproducer

[TinfoilPhono]

Here is an extract explaining the patented design of the stylus holder assembly. It was a lot more complicated than just mounting a sapphire to the underside of a violin (as Ray Phillips did for his replica Palmodians), or a standard reproducer to the side of a violin (as in the eBay listing).

This should enlarge if you click on it.

[Inigo]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this!

[GlensterTX]

I did a little look-around in “The Talking Machine Monthly” available at the World Radio History website and found this eye-opening nugget on page 14 of the May 1913 issue available for download from https://worldradiohistory.com/Talking_Machine_World.htm :

“A carbon microphone”? Really? I can’t help feeling that perhaps the author was not entirely clear on how the thing worked. I find that fairly early use of a microphone fascinating! Can anyone add more info?

[TinfoilPhono]

If you refer back to the article I posted a couple of posts above this, the first paragraph talks about (and illustrates) a piece of carbon being mounted between the stylus holder and the violin back. Exactly how that was supposed to improve the sound is unclear. I think the author of the article just posted was confused about that carbon insulator versus a carbon microphone. Obviously there was nothing electronic involved. I seriously doubt if carbon worked any differently than wood or metal in the original application.

[Lucius1958]

If you refer back to the article I posted a couple of posts above this, the first paragraph talks about (and illustrates) a piece of carbon being mounted between the stylus holder and the violin back. Exactly how that was supposed to improve the sound is unclear. I think the author of the article just posted was confused about that carbon insulator versus a carbon microphone. Obviously there was nothing electronic involved. I seriously doubt if carbon worked any differently than wood or metal in the original application.

I wonder about another detail as well: the absence of the violin's soundpost. If (in a regular violin) it helps transmit vibrations from the bridge to the back, might it not also be useful (in the phonograph) to transmit vibrations from the back to the belly, and thereby improve the sound?

- Bill

[AllenKoe]

According to my copy of PHP, here is some background on the Violin That Sings:

"(77). 787,264 Talking Machine (Joseph E. Beatty)
Filed March 31, 1904 Issued April 11, 1905

As unlikely as it seems, this violin amplified reproducer was actually manufactured in France in 1913 and sold as H. O. Buffet's Le Palmodian ("Le Violon qui chante") in three different models, A/B/C, using carbon granules and a sapphire stylus. Perhaps three survive today, one at the Phonotheque Nationale in Paris (cf. his Brit. pat. 2160 & 3015/1913). An intermediate patent of the same type, issued to W. H. Dessureau on May 24, 1910, further enhanced its use (959,318). As far back as June 1, 1896, Emile Berliner's June 1, 1896 Instruction Manual had suggested: "A violin or similar instrument held against [the stylus] will render the sound very loud." Metal violins with flared trumpets specifically for recording were developed in London by J. M. Augustus Stroh in 1899 (644,695 & Brit. pat. 9418), and the Violinola was introduced in 1908 by Ludwig Hupfeld. The Stradivara phonograph was introduced in 1916 by the Compton-Price Piano Co. and M. D. Gans' reproducer diaphragms made of "viola/violin spruce" were used in Cleveland, Ohio in the early 1920's. See also Schiffrin & Czamanski's sounding chamber in Brit. pat. 290,640/1927. The idea of placing strings over the sound¬amplifier was also utilized by the Klingsor phonograph of February 1907 (899,491; cf. Leighton's 872,828). In 1905, a snare-drum resonator was supplied by F. Shanks (822,024) and an even more unusual reproducer, described in the shape of the human mouth, was invented in 1910 by J. Veit (979,231); cf. G. Duncan's "vocal-cord modifier" (914,934). The solicitors listed here, Munn & Co. of 37 Park Row and 361 Broadway, NYC, were also the publishers of the Scientific American, and had specialized in patent applications for the general public since the mid-1840s."

Hope this helps, a little.

Allen

[HMVDevotee]

I agree with Bill's observation about the lack of sound post, but then again I am amazed that someone would design such a contraption with little understanding of how a violin works in the first place. The movement of the top plate (belly or front, made of spruce that is at once light and stiff) as it is driven by the rocking motion of the bridge's feet, is transmitted in part to the sound post that, in turn, sets the back plate in motion. The "f" holes allow the center of the top plate, under the bridge's feet, to rock more freely which drives the entire body of the violin. Perhaps the visual effect of seeing a violin as the source of the sound was just too effective a marketing idea than actually achieving the best sound. Pity the designer didn't spend time trying to figure out how to wiggle the bridge of a violin and let the incredible acoustics of the instrument do it's thing.

Robert