Pathé Model VII Restoration: Motor Disassembly

[derik_olson]

I am attempting to do this exact thing, with the exact model. How did it go in the end? Any advice? I am at the point now of unscrewing the barrels and removing the springs.

[dzavracky]

I am attempting to do this exact thing, with the exact model. How did it go in the end? Any advice? I am at the point now of unscrewing the barrels and removing the springs.

It's been awhile since I did mine. I no longer have mine, but I can try to be of as much help as you need. My advice would be to just take it slow, and take lots of pictures if you're unsure how to put it back together. The machine sounds pretty nice when fixed up... but it's not very loud. Be careful with the diaphragm... it's not a common size and will be difficult to replace!

here's my restoration: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45902&hilit=Pathé

Good luck,

David

[derik_olson]

It's been awhile since I did mine. I no longer have mine, but I can try to be of as much help as you need. My advice would be to just take it slow, and take lots of pictures if you're unsure how to put it back together. The machine sounds pretty nice when fixed up... but it's not very loud. Be careful with the diaphragm... it's not a common size and will be difficult to replace!

here's my restoration: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45902&hilit=Pathé

Good luck,

David

The diaphragm is in the reproducer, correct? I am not working on that now, just the motor.

[Inigo]

Yes, it's the clear membrane of mica crystal, suspended between two gasket tube rings, which collects the needle vibrations and communicates them to the air chamber behind it, enclosed in the soundbox. The same function as the cone in a speaker, but here the movement is directly mechanically transmitted by the needlebar.
In a speaker, the movement of the cone is generated electrically, transformed in movement by means of the speaker coil immersed in a magnetic field.

[dzavracky]

It's been awhile since I did mine. I no longer have mine, but I can try to be of as much help as you need. My advice would be to just take it slow, and take lots of pictures if you're unsure how to put it back together. The machine sounds pretty nice when fixed up... but it's not very loud. Be careful with the diaphragm... it's not a common size and will be difficult to replace!

here's my restoration: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45902&hilit=Pathé

Good luck,

David

The diaphragm is in the reproducer, correct? I am not working on that now, just the motor.

Yes it is in the reproducer.

I used to let springs just fly out of the barrels, but I stopped doing it because it often damages the end of the spring. Making a new spring end takes a lot of work, so instead I try to slowly release it. If you chose to go with this method, wear gloves! I hold the barrel in my left hand and slowly pull out the spring with my right hand. Then you can clean everything with your cleaner of choice. Taking apart everything else is pretty straight forward. When you take apart the govenor take notice of the springs. If I remember correctly the springs should have two kinds of holes, one oblong and another just a circle. That is so you can adjust the weights and have your govenor be properly balanced. Brett Hurt has a good video of this on youtube. Polishing the bearing ends is a good thing to do as well.... I find it helps the motor run better. I use sewing machine oil (not 3 in 1) on the moving parts and then grease the gears. If you are confused or are worried about how it goes back together, just take pictures.

Best of luck!

David

[jimlewis1126]

Hey Derik! ... And Hey to David! You've come to the right place. David was the chief guru on my restoration, although there were a lot of other incredibly valuable contributors -- all were most generous with their time and guidance. I was a complete neophyte when I started; thanks to these guys, I'm now only a 98% neophyte. But I have a restored Pathé VII that runs and plays beautifully. My video speaks a thousand words:

IMG_2608.MOV

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Don't know that I can offer any wisdom above and beyond the real pros on the forum -- most of these folks have done a zillion restorations; I have done ONE. If you're new at this, go to YouTube for demonstrations -- especially removing and reloading the springs. Info on Pathé restorations is scarce, but they're not so far afield from competing brands, and the motor is a fairly common model (Heinemann No. 77). If you have to rebuild your sound box, I may be able to give you specific guidance. Mine posed some challenges that kept getting worse and worse, and another forum member most generously GAVE ME a Pathé American sound box (very important, because their are a few French-made components floating about that may or may not work). Silica discs are a bit tricky to come by; gasket tubing and needles are much easier. You can check out my supplemental thread -- Pathé Model VII Restoration: Needle Bar (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47861).

If you have specific questions, please feel free to PM me and we can take it offline by email, or even by old-fashioned talking on the phone (just makes me giddy to think about it!)

Keep me posted... Good luck... Cheers!
Jim

[Inigo]

It's amazing how well and warm this machine plays that electrical record!
Congratulations.
Nevertheless, I would suggest you to try one thing. When moving the reproducer to the lateral play position, don't carry the reproducer all the way in the screw slot. It seems the tracking alignment would benefit from a slightly less rotated position. Try a position where the needle is tangent to the grooves. Now it seems a bit biased pointing out to the record edge. Besides that, with the change, the needle would fall a little more vertical on the record. Now it seems to fall at 45 degrees or less. 55 degrees would be better, less needle drag, less distortion, etc. You must examine the geometry both at the start and at the end of the record, and try to find an intermediate position that fits well on both ends.
Your needle is fibre? It seems in the video that it is leaving a grey mark on the grooves. If the record is a red label CBS Columbia, I have the same problem with them. A better needle angle (more sharp) would work better.
Anyway, it's marvelous how well it sounds. These pathé reproducers with their big mica diaphragms are well suited for electrical recordings. Similar to the hmv/Victor no4 soundbox, or the German Juwell Electro, still with a larger mica diameter...

[jimlewis1126]

Wow… thank you so much, Inigo! Compared to modern turntables, this is such primitive technology that I’d almost never think of fine tuning the machine to improve tracking while playing conventional discs (versus the 90-degree turn required to play a Pathé hill-and-dale record with the Sapphire Ball Stylus… and I have neither). My needles are steel (which, as commanded by the talking-machine gods, I use only once and then discard) — I don’t know if that makes a difference for how my sound box is positioned. If so, please speak up. I always welcome any advice that will reduce my neophyte ranking to 97%.

[Inigo]

I'm watching your video again with more attention...
What brand is the record you're plating (September Song)? BTW, it's a very beautiful rendition. Maybe it's one of those late forties in vinlylic material, which deteriorates under steel neeedles and a heavy soundbox. Or maybe it's dirt in the grooves that the needle is taking out...
Anyway, what I say I confirm:
FIRST CHECK, LOOKING DOWN FROM ABOVE THE CENTER OF THE PLATTER: it seems the needle points outwards instead of keeping more or less tangent to the grooves at the needle point. To keep it tangent across the entire disc is impossible geometrically, but it seems that a little of turning of the soundbox towards the Pathé position would put the needle more tangent to the grooves. Try to make it tangent at the middle of the recorded area. This way you'll have the minimum error at the outmost grooves and at the inner ones.
SECOND CHECK: THE NEEDLE ANGLE WITH THE RECORD PLANE, LOOKING FROM THE SIDE: That change of position of the soundbox will also put the needle more vertical to the grooves, as I said. When watched from the side of the needle, it should take an angle to the record plane of 50-55 degrees, better than 45. With such a low angle as 45, the needle point contact area is wider as seen from the grooves, and distortion and groove wear is worst.
THIRD CHECK, LOOKING RIGHT FROM THE FRONT OF THE NEEDLE: the needle must fall vertical (90 degrees) on the record plane. If it looks scanted the point will attack one groove wall more than the other, and wear the grooves rapidly.

TRACKING.png

Pardon me, I'm VERY curious... but I don't have myself a Pathé machine like yours (would love to have one!) But it seems altogether that if you move slightly the soundbox towards the Pathé position, all this will improve at the same time, given the geometry of the tonearm and soundbox junction. YOu must loosen the set screw a bit, turn slightly the soundbox to the Pathé position, then fix the screw in the new position and check if all this improves or not. It seems that a slight change would improve things.
If it doesn't improve, you've lost nothing!

[derik_olson]

I got the springs cleaned and back in their barrels, although I think I scratched the inside of the barrels trying to get the springs on the outer clips. At first I tried putting the springs back in with grease on them, but that didn't work as I couldn't get a good grip. So I greased them after I got them back in. Hope the grease will work its way down inside each coil.

I'm trying now to re-attach the arbor shaft. I managed to get it in the clip of one of the springs, but the other one is eluding me. Not sure if I'm missing a trick?

I'm contemplating placing two felt washers between the barrels (i.e. at the place where the arbor shaft goes through), so that there is no metal on metal contact and so that the grease doesn't come out. When I pulled the motor, one barrel had tons of grease around it. Not sure if someone put it there or if it came out through that hole where the arbor shaft sits. One guy of facebook said it was probably due to heat, forcing the grease out.

Thanks for all your comments. They really help. The 1st picture is how it looked when I pulled it from the cabinet.