When was the first Zonophone actually made?

[vic-b]

So..., I have an ad on the back of a periodical called Leslie's Weekly. It is from July of 1900. The back cove has a full 11' by 16' Zonophone ad for the glass sided Zonophone A. (It also boasts coverage of the Democratic Convention of 1900 in Kansas City.)

If this ad is from July 1900, when were Zonophones being produced in a great enough quantity that the National Gramophone Company could actually take out advertisement such as this? I know there are a lot of Zono geeks out there who are smarter than me (George P.) Looking forward to hear from you.

I would think that this would have to be one of the earliest ads?

As a side note, read the legal language at the bottom of the ad! Pretty fascinating!

Best,
Jeff

[Shawn]

Jeff,

For Zonophone, I am in your camp - Knowledgeable, but not deeply.

I can share that pin The Phonoscope, Zonophone dealers were being sought in April of 1899, and the first appearance of a Zonophone machine ad was in November of 1899. The Machine was an A, but had a mechanical feed screw horn arrangement.

[JerryVan]

Jeff,

For Zonophone, I am in your camp - Knowledgeable, but not deeply.

I can share that pin The Phonoscope, Zonophone dealers were being sought in April of 1899, and the first appearance of a Zonophone machine ad was in November of 1899. The Machine was an A, but had a mechanical feed screw horn arrangement.

phonoscope13hunt_0502.jpg

phonoscope13hunt_0672.jpg

!!!! Do any of these mechanical feed screw Zonophones exist today? Did they even really exist in 1899, or was this some preliminary artistry for the sake of getting out an advertisement? (Much of that sort of thing is prevalent in early automobile ads.) Or, an early design that never made it into production?

Thanks for including the glass horn ad as well!

[gramophone78]

According to the extensive research done by Allen K, the first commercially made Zonophone's were available May 1900. A detailed article "The King Of All Talking Machines" was published in APS. The article also shows what is believed to be the first ad May 1900.

FirstZonoAdLargerMay31-1900.jpg (175.43 KiB) Viewed 1102 times

[phonogfp]

If this ad is from July 1900, when were Zonophones being produced in a great enough quantity that the National Gramophone Company could actually take out advertisement such as this? I know there are a lot of Zono geeks out there who are smarter than me (George P.) Looking forward to hear from you.

I don't mind being called a geek, but please don't accuse me of being smart!

Rather than re-hash the stuff I've included in articles, I will attach an article that appeared in the June 2019 issue of the APS magazine, The Antique Phonograph.

I must point out the problem of citing masthead dates of The Phonoscope as production benchmarks. As shown in the attached article, The Phonoscope itself published announcements that its masthead dates and its publishing dates were off by sometimes several months. The "November 1899" Phonoscope ad cited above was published after February 14, 1900.

Around 20 years ago an unrestored Zonophone-like disc machine with a mechanical feed surfaced on eBay. It may have been a Zonophone or it may have been a George Cheney prototype. Unfortunately, any images I saved were lost. I bid on it but it went for strong money. I've always wondered what happened to that machine.

George P.

Zonobirth.pdf

(2.57 MiB) Downloaded 67 times

By the way, if you like this article and are not a member of the APS, you're missing out on lots of information written by smart people, plus me. Here's how you can join:

https://www.antiquephono.org/join-us-home/

[gramophone78]

+1 on George's advice.

If you look at the first Zonophone ads, you may notice something.....well, missing. There is no leather elbow used.
I believe the first production run of machine's had a metal elbow that is made in two halves and fits perfectly onto the sound box (as shown on my early Zono).
The Zonophone was being marketed like no other machine before and nothing like the Gramophone in performance and quality and had to be shown as something "new" to attract buyers.
Even the mechanical feed model appears to have had a metal type elbow.

However, perhaps as a cost saving measure, the use of a Berliner type leather elbow soon replaced this well made elbow.

[Zwebie]

If you look at the first Zonophone ads, you may notice something.....well, missing. There is no leather elbow used.
I believe the first production run of machine's had a metal elbow that is made in two halves and fits perfectly onto the sound box (as shown on my early Zono).
The Zonophone was being marketed like no other machine before and nothing like the Gramophone in performance and quality and had to be shown as something "new" to attract buyers.
Even the mechanical feed model appears to have had a metal type elbow.

Another version of the early elbow, which has a widened end and is lined with celluloid?, for a snug fit on the reproducer.
I have seen very few of these, maybe it was an evolution of the first type elbow, but too costly to make?

Cheers, Bob S.

[AllenKoe]

!!!Do any of these mechanical feed screw Zonophones exist today? Did they even really exist in 1899, or was this some preliminary artistry for the sake of getting out an advertisement? (Much of that sort of thing is prevalent in early automobile ads.) Or, an early design that never made it into production?

Although Frank Seaman played fast and loose with the name of Zonophone (since early 1898, but first simply as an alternate term for Berliner's Gramophone), frequently confusing even other advertisers in the Phonoscope, there were no actual Zonophone machines as we know them, in 1899 (in the marketplace).

The complex feedscrew model shown in the large Phonoscope Ad ("Nov 1899") was no figment however - it was actually patented, and appeared (for $30) in a (now) lost catalog in early 1900, as 'No. 55.' It was based on Cheney's US Pats 640,367 & 641,578. They would have been rather difficult to manufacture to say the least. I have never seen it in the wild but a prototype was surely built.

The Berliner executives were much troubled by Seaman's use of (competing advertising) nomenclature and wrote to him often, citing their mutual (restrictive) contract. Seaman would sometimes try to avoid legal scrutiny by insisting that "his" devices were solely intended "for export." But this ongoing dispute was a disaster just waiting to happen (for all concerned)... and would indirectly lead to, tada, formation of the Victor Talking Machine Co. in Oct. 1901.

You would probably enjoy the Zonophone history as Wayne said ("The King of All Talking Machines"), with lots of detail and relevant pix, that appeared in the AP back in June 2015.

Allen

[gramophone78]

Bob, Thank you for posting the pics of your brass elbow. Mine is also brass (painted black) and quite well made. To solder the two halves and then solder onto the horn would have not only been time consuming, but more expensive than to just switch over to a cheaper and already readily available leather elbow. This would have also cut down on horn material being used too.
As a fledging company starting out, you would want to put your best design forward and be "different" in anyway possible to the competition. Then try to increase your profit and decrease your production time and costs.

I am amazed at how perfect and tight the fit is with the elbow to the sound box throat.

Ironically, within a short time, the use of a metal elbow on Zonophone's came back, only with a built in clamp device.

[Shawn]

I must point out the problem of citing masthead dates of The Phonoscope as production benchmarks. As shown in the attached article, The Phonoscope itself published announcements that its masthead dates and its publishing dates were off by sometimes several months. The "November 1899" Phonoscope ad cited above was published after February 14, 1900.

I've heard this before and do agree that it is a factually correct statement. However, no one was asserting the production date of the machine , only citing when the first ads appeared in the Phonoscope. Many publications, both then and current, have content that is produced months different than the publish date. Production dates require factory documentation to truly pinpoint. Period magazines provide good content that helps in research and is considered primary source documentation to be used to help triangulate to the real story.


Shawn