gramophoneshane wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:30 pm
JeffR1 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:43 am
*forcing the grease in the rest of the spring is key, this allows the grease to spread evenly and makes for a quiet spring; this is what I have learned for myself.
*Here is what I believe what is wrong with Vaseline and Graphite, and I think this is what Edison has used on the C19 _ the Chippendale model ?
It separates into an oil and lumps of hard graphite, the graphite ends up in the cavities in the spring barrel and all that's left to lubricate the spring is just the oil.
*I'm glad my suggestion to actually pack the barrel with grease, instead of smearing a thin layer of it along the length of the spring, worked.
Bravo.
*Actually, as far as I'm aware, Edison DID NOT use vaseline and graphite mix on springs, but Victor/HMV did, or at least they used some sort of graphite grease, which after 50 yrs tends to harden.
What I have come across is an original tube of Edison grease for Diamond Disc and Amberola machines.
It about a quarter of the size of a regular tube of toothpaste and the grease inside is a dark green colour with a "sparkle" through it, which is obviously graphite.
The tube recommend you add a whole tube to a DD barrel or half tube to an Amberola if spring noise appears.
*I actually found your statement about hard chunks of graphite in cavities leaving just the oil behind hard to believe and I have to ask, how do you know this?
It's certainly been nothing like what I've experienced over 40 yrs doing dozens of motors, and until two weeks ago you didn't even know you need more than a teaspoon of grease to stop springs bumping.
I mean yes, graphite grease will be in the barrel cavities etc, but no more than any other grease would, except it's dries up, Most of the remaining graphite grease in the barrel will also be hard, particularly where the grease may have been trapped in the same place for perhaps decades without use, while some grease toward the inner coils haven't dries quite as much due to being move about more with use and holding its moisture better in a greater volume. Maybe?
But I have never come across a situation as you've described
I also have to ask why you would recommend using a grease gun to screw into the plug hole in an Edison barrel when adding grease to the spring.
It is completely unnecessary.
With the spring fully wound as instructed, the plug is removed, and the hole is positioned so there is a huge cavity between the barrel and spring.
The original grease tube has tip around half an inch long, similar to those used on some eye ointments,, and you simply insert that tip in the hole and squeeze the tube to deliver the desired amount.
There's no pressure or resistance from within the barrel making it necessary to force grease into the barrel like you'd need to force grease into a grease nipple..
I also wouldn't recommend adding a modern synthetic grease to old grease in a barrel. I think that probably would have a greater chance of causing seperation issues in the barrel due to using completely different formula to make them, so perhaps one of the old fashioned non synthetic grease would be a safer choice with a better chance of blending together.
Here is a quote from gunnarthefeisty from a post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=312281#p312281
"Is there anything I can put into my C19 motor that'll "loosen up" the grease just a bit"?
I think he's looking for a quick fix, he doesn't want to get into removing the springs, per my suggestion too add more grease.
See my photos, very little is left of the original grease, or it has dried up, what ever is left will be forced to mix of what ever is left in there with a modern grease.
I heard what you said, "shouldn't mix incompatible grease together", but does it really matter here, since he's fudging it anyway, it will mix altogether and it may solve his problem.
The majority of what he can get in there will be a new modern grease, and I believe that there will be so little of the original, it won't matter.
Adding a thinner or an oil, I think may make things worse, it may be quiet at first, but the original grease had dried up separated (the way I see it).
It will thin anything down in there, leak out and he'll be left with even less lubrication.
About the tube of the Edison grease and not needing a grease gun.
My suggestion was to add a modern grease (Amsoil) where is he going to find Amsoil grease in an Edison tube, how's is he going to get it in there ?
I don't want to come across as being a smart-ass, but I never intended for him to use some old grease from an old Edison tube.
Maybe a syringe, but one would have to fill it, plus the opening is quite small for a thick grease for him to use a syringe, perhaps some white lithium grease, but it's kind of thin.
How are others adding grease through that opening on the Edison spring barrels that have that feature ?
It's probably not even being used anymore, 99% of us would take it apart and do it the correct way.
I haven't done that many motors, the ones that I have done show most of the graphite caked on the outer edge of the barrel, with some smaller amounts in the centre, like in my photo's
The green arrows show the caking, the red arrows show what looks like caked grease, but it isn't, they are very small areas where some has fallen from the edge when I removed the springs.
Lots was on the cover, but very little of anything was on the coils; nothing but a thin film of oil from the Vaseline and a scant amount of graphite (this assumes that graphite and Vaseline was used, they are both Victor motors that I bought from eBay for parts, the springs were just removed now)
There was no caking of dried grease on the coils, interestingly there were dry spots on the coils, so maybe after another 50 years in somebodies dry hot attic, the oily film would have dried up, and I can see a situation that you have described of caked dried grease
The thin film of oil left on the springs causes the thumping when unwinding, I discovered when using different types of oil in my lubrication experiments.
What you see on the spring(s) is similar to talcum powder sprinkled on a film of water, and almost the same viscosity _ pretty useless.
I tried ATF and thick gear oil, I concluded that using just oil does not work, because it simply gets squeezed out between the coils because it's too runny to stay in-between the coils under the pressure.
Further more, oil does not work because the springs are not perfectly flat, they have high and low spots, the oil stays in the low spots and the spring squeezes the oil out of the high spots.
The spring binds on the high spots and then suddenly lets go causing the thumping.
This changes depending on how much or how little the spring is wound.
I too don't want to contradict your experience either, all of this has come about when I used that "Green Grease" from a YouTube video. (that was a disaster)
At the time installing the spring dry and adding grease only to the centre did not make any sense, but I'm not finished pre-greasing the spring.
I did come up with a mix where only a thin film of grease works, I will post a video of that, it will be similar to watching the grass grow, watching the spring quietly unwind.
However this method pre-greasing the spring is tricky, just the right amount is needed, too much and the spring sticks causing thumping.
It has to be spread evenly, which is hard to do as well.
When I assemble my Victor triple spring motor from the Victor VI/L-Door, I will use the "packing" method, but with my own mix, and I will post what that is later.
![[The Talking Machine Forum - For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings]](/styles/we_universal/theme/images/the_talking_machine_forum.png)
