NEWBIES: Never Use Vaseline As A Lubricant

[JeffR1]

Nothing is dried out on any of the springs that I have come across, like everyone says _ there is always this useless film of oil with this thin slurry of graphite that does pretty much nothing to lubricate the springs, this is what's in the photos.
I guess you just can't see it.

I'm really sorry you can't make any sense of what I'm saying.

You've stated that the graphite is seperated from vaseline, and the hard stuff let behind is just graphite, when it's actually hardened graphite grease.
Certain component of vaseline and grease will evaporate over time into the atmosphere, particularly with old types made decades ago.
I'm sure even a tub of modern synthetic grease if left exposed to the air would change in consistency after 100 yrs.
Part of the issues that modern greases aim to improve is to stop this evaporation occurring due to heat, usage and exposure.

And who and where is this "everybody" that say there is always this useless film of oil with this thin slurry of graphite that does pretty much nothing to lubricate the springs?
What I see in your photos is simply areas where the lube has been pushed to fill any voids, and that's where it stays unless it's scraped off through metal to metal contact inside the barrel.
Left long enough it will harden and even possibly build up in layers over time, but you'll find the same voids getting filled with fresh grease too only it's still going to be soft.
I'm really sorry you can't make any sense of what I'm saying.

I didn't say everybody finds a useless film of oil, I said everyone finds the springs dried out.
I remember reading where the dried graphite grease had to be chipped off the spring.
Now I may have read that here somewhere or saw it in a YouTube video, probably both.
There were a number of cases; oddly enough I have never come across that, but eventually I am sure I will.
I bought my first machine when I was still in school, and now more then 30 years later, I'm still not finding this hardened grease that has to be chipped off.
Nothing has to be chipped off in those photos either, just wiping with a rag will easily remove what you see.

This all came about when I watched Al Hurt use this "Green Grease" brand of grease in one of his YouTube videos, he did not add the grease to the void in the centre of the installed spring, he coiled the spring in the barrel while it was in the vice and added the grease as he went.
I will also say, it seemed like a very awkward way to install a spring, it's much easier to rotate the barrel on the bench.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrC2mYdc7bs&t=219s

This is what I did, and it did not work for me at all _ here is that video again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af68Z4qauMc

I thought the centre axle had become disengaged from one of the springs, but in fact what was happening was the grease was so sticky and applied unevenly, the spring would wind and release, and do what you see in the video.
This action would probably only occur on a triple spring motor.

All Hurt seems like a pretty knowledgeable guy with his nice videos and what seems like a pretty impressive collection of gramophones, but I became skeptical when his method of applying grease didn't work at all for me.
So now I come here where you, and a few others (Wyatt Markus is one of them) tell me the method of packing the centre of a dry spring and allow the action of winding it up spread the grease.
So know I am skeptical, it doesn't matter to me at this point how long you guys have been doing it that way; given that I had quite the time getting that Green Grease here in Canada; which was just a waste of money after all.

I have run into these situations many times where experienced people say, "this is what works", or "that can't be done" or "this is the only way", and so on, most of the time these so called experienced people have no idea what they are talking about, even if the have been doing that way for 30 or 40 years.
Well maybe they have been doing it wrong all this time, or maybe what's acceptable to them, or just good enough, isn't acceptable for me.
Maybe what is a quiet motor, is not quiet for me, so off I went doing my own thing.

Here is a good example of this on what was being discussed as the best way to re-assemble this rather complex transmission out of a RR/Bentley.
The correct, the way in the manual was most difficult, I found a much easier way.
This is getting off the subject, but it's a good example, and there are others.

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/1 ... 1631263848
(it's a long thread, if you scroll down about half way, you can see the gear cluster being mounted at a very awkward and difficult angle while trying to engage third and forth gear, it's a near impossible task)

So with all that, I was trying to find a better way to grease a gramophone spring, that was based on the assumption that your method wasn't going to work, but with all that, I will admit, that yours's is the best way, and I think I did admit that earlier.
The fact that it does work, is the exception, self appointed professionals/experts are all over the place, DYI wood workers fall into this category, machinists that don't what they are doing, people who think they can bake and cook _ on and on.

I never let any bicycle mechanic touch my bike either.

[MicaMonster]

Graphite flake is the absolute key element here. I still use Vaseline/graphite mixture because it works fine. I have never had anything glued together EXCEPT with springs greased from the factory with beef tallow. That stuff DOES turn into glue after 100 years!!!!

I’ve seen it all. Whatever grease you use, it must absolutely have graphite flake in it. White lithium isn’t worth the bottle it is packed in. If you use straight grease you are depending on surface tension alone to keep the springs lubricated. Unfortunately this also makes springs bind up, stiction.

I am titillated by the possibility of trying a synthetic grease with graphite mixed in! I might make some for my personal machines some day. My main three workhorses, which are used daily to evaluate reproducers sent in for repair are used hard and frequently. All have ⅔ Vaseline ⅓ graphite mix in them. I don’t know why everyone is talking down the original mixture…. Unless they aren’t putting enough in or are afraid of the mess it makes when mixing.

Put Vaseline in a ziplock bag with the graphite. Zip closed. Knead like dough and you’re done!

[JeffR1]

Hey Wyatt,
What about this stuff, if you get curios to try something else ?
The particle size is much smaller, so it gets into the pores of the steel much better then graphite, this gives it the ability to stay put, more so the graphite.
So the theory goes.

About your machines getting hard use, leave one sit for a few years, and then try it.
I believe the Vaseline of today is far better, it doesn't separate like it did in the past.

[gramophoneshane]

Wow lol.
I haven't laughed so much for a long time. Your talents are being wasted here lol.

[steamer]

Greetings,
I certainly am a newbie on any phonograph forum. My experience in the US military gives me the knowledge that molybdenum disulfide (moly as commonly called) is an excellent lube for sliding surfaces. On my equipment (the missile launcher) we used it on the chains and sliding guide arms. I would prefer it for the spring motor in an old phonograph. I haven't seen the concentrated version that we used for sale but the "moly" wheel bearing grease should suffice well.

[JeffR1]

Wow lol.
I haven't laughed so much for a long time. Your talents are being wasted here lol.

You must have missed my performance at the Sidney Opera House.

Which to you find funnier, my suggestion to Wyatt, or my post before that, I need some fresh material ?

I did catch your act as "Super Jerk" though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3H9dDe6oUE

[PeteLeoni]

Although I am a Victrola newbie, I will add this: If you can smell it, you most certainly have evaporation occurring

[alessandrotnt]

I would like to suggest for the millionth time, that the most effective way to dissolve old grease and oil is with plain inexpensive vegetable cooking oil. It is non-flammable, non-toxic, non-carcinogenic. You do not need petroleum distillates to dissolve grease! Cooking oil even dissolves roofing tar!

That's true! And you should try extra-virgin olive oil.. a little bit expensive, but it does the job.

[PeteLeoni]

Let this dot. >> . << stand in for the one time I resisted all 562 jokes that wrote themselves in my head when I read the title. Your welcome.

[CharliePhono]

Let this dot. >> . << stand in for the one time I resisted all 562 jokes that wrote themselves in my head when I read the title. Your welcome.