HMV 102E, quality control, and a speed issue

[nostalgia]

This is the first time I have found a HMV gramophone with a manufacture issue, that has caused the machine to broke at a very early age.
I bought the machine for a mere 30 euro, knowing it did not work, but it looked so nice, and I was curious to see what caused the problem, so I bought it. When dismantling it I quickly saw the spring had broken at both ends, not something I often come across, so far this is the first time I have seen it.

The pristine condition of the machine, made me realize it must have been working for a very short period before it broke. It was first when I put it back together after changing the main spring I discovered the manufacture issue that had passed the quailty control. The bridge ( I name it that since I don't really know the name for that part) holding the small thin angled washer that again hold the winding gear was not even. A metal particle of 1-2 mm at the rim of the hole holding the gear in it's place caused the thin angled washer to hardly fit under the bridge, and still...the worker had forced the gear into it's position.

Unfortunetely the picture taken out in the sun are difficult to decipher, but thos having serviced a 102, will understand what I mean, I hope. This issue had of course again caused the owners to be unable really to get a good feeling of how to wind up the gramophone, and because of it, not knowing when to stop etc. The result, a broken spring at both ends at a very early time of the lifespan of this machine.

I used a file, 20 seconds later...problem solved.

The machine looks like new, in particular the motor, but it runs too fast, even when the glider (should be corrected to slider plate) adjusting the speed is at its lowest. I have not met this problem before really, so I guess I will just need to drill two new small holes and move the glider (corrected to slider plate), to be able to adjust the speed correctly. Has a new worker been responsible for the pitfallls of this machine ?

I thought it could be of interest to know how one erronous small millimeter can make everything wrong to a beautiful HMV 102.

[Phono48]

You shouldn't need to drill any new holes to move the "glider" (not sure what you mean by that!) The speed must have been right when the machine left the factory, so adjustment can surely be made without moving anything to a new position?

Barry

[Inigo]

I see. You have the sliding plate at one end, and it should be in the middle... depending on the motor adjustment and the condition of the felt pad of the speed regulator lever. It may be misplaced or too thin...
So in case the pad seems good, you should do what you said, moving the plate to the left do a new slower range is available. But be careful, as this can easily be "overdone"...
Anyway, I'd try to discover if the problem comes from another part, mainly the governor not being in its right place. It's easier to move the governor bearings than to drill new holes on the motorboard.... I don't remember if these bearings have a groove for the set screw to fit in. Maybe they are misplaced.
I would try first this last thing. Drilling new holes would be the last solution!

[nostalgia]

The adustable speed control mechanism under the turtntable, that slides ( not gildes) when you loosen the two screws. Even when tightened to the maximum, the speed is still too high. I can't really understand how this machine passed the quailty control in the first place, since this metal particle caused the winding gear to be almost totally stuck. Can it have caused the worker to drill erronous holes, and now..when the metal particle has been removed and the gear works as is should, will it automatically run faster?

[nostalgia]

The governor runs like new, I have never seen a quiter motor, of course because it is...like new, it has never been used. It has set screws, they are both correct. I was actually quite surprised to see how this motor runs, so smoothly, it propels....

[Phono48]

Two things to check before doing anything else! Under the turntable, and sticking up through the motor board is a little spring-loaded metal prong that is moved backwards and forwards as the speed control is moved between fast and slow. This often sticks when the speed has been set to fast, and doesn't return when the speed control is moved to slow, so that the motor runs fast permanently. It is pivoted from the top of the motor. Clean and oil it. The other thing to check is that when the motor is running, and the speed selector is moved to "fast", the governors should slide smoothly along their central shaft, and return smoothly as the control is moved to "slow". If they are sticking on the shaft, then the governors have to come out, the central shaft removed, cleaned and polished before replacing.

Barry

[nostalgia]

Thanks for trying to help Barry. I always totally disassemble the motors when I service them, and the governor has been carefully cleaned and oiled and it spins and moves perfefctly now, something it absolutely did not before cleaning. The little spring loaded metal prong is the first thing I check when doing these motors, and it also was totally stuck in old grease/oil, and did not move at all. After cleaning and oiling it works like a charm. The only parts that has not been removed on this machine now is the carrying handle and the corner shields, since it really was not necessary.

Unfortunately I have the rest of my 102's in a storage locker, if not I would compare the positioning of the metal plate adjusting the speed to the metal plate of another 102 with a flushed motor board before I find the drill. I upload a photo, in case somone has a 102 at hand with a flushed motorboard and can measure its position as I have done on the photo. The measurement was taken with the plate positioned as far left as possible. (measured in cm/mm) 76 mm to the edge of the motor board.

[Phono48]

I've just measured mine from the same points, and it is exactly 8 centimetres.

Barry

[nostalgia]

These are interesting observations Barry, thanks for taking the measure. Do you think these 4 mm can cause the problem? I am prone to say yes...myself.
I am already looking for the drill, and move the plate 4 mm...

[gramophoneshane]

To be honest, I wouldn't go drilling anything at least until you've had a chance to get to your storage and compare it to another motor.
There's no way this 102 would have been sold running too fast otherwise the original owner would have taken it straight back for repair or replacement, so there has to be something else wrong.
Inigo could be right saying the felt pad could be too short to be working properly, but I'd at least compare it to another motor before altering anything..
The problem has to be somewhere along the speed control to governor chain, so theres not really that many places for something to go wrong.

It'd just be such a shame to drill additional holes in a machine that's in such immaculate condition.
Personally I'd rather swap the motor with another 102 you have, instead of drilling holes in what's probably your very best 102 visually.