Colonial Gramophones of Swiss Origin

[poodling around]

Let me simplify my hypothesis for you:
A: a fake is actually a copy ( not a true one) of the original
B: the original ( Primaphone etc.) might have been lost (or relegated to anonymity) long time back while the fake in some crudely modified form still exists
B: when the original is found, it is likely to be treated as a kind of fake for its apparent similarity to the fake.

I hope I have been able to explain.
Cheers
Sheraz

So, can a fake be a crapophone ?

[OrthoFan]

Here's one example of a non-Fake Primaphone -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5o0rbdDOA -- which shows obviously build quality and performance not associated with conventional Crap-O-Phones.

[poodling around]

Here's one example of a non-Fake Primaphone -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5o0rbdDOA -- which shows obviously build quality and performance not associated with conventional Crap-O-Phones.

Could it be a Frankenphone ?

[OrthoFan]

Here's one example of a non-Fake Primaphone -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5o0rbdDOA -- which shows obviously build quality and performance not associated with conventional Crap-O-Phones.

Could it be a Frankenphone ?

Possibly, but normally the term Frankenphone refers to a gramophone assembled out of various parts/components culled from other (normally other brand) gramophones. For instance, I once spotted a Victor Victrola (one of the larger console models) fitted with a Brunswick Ultona tonearm and horn, and re-motored with a Swiss-made motor, turntable, etc.. (It had the redundant empty crank hole on the side.) I remember that it was not a very neat job.

OrthoFan

[poodling around]

Here's one example of a non-Fake Primaphone -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5o0rbdDOA -- which shows obviously build quality and performance not associated with conventional Crap-O-Phones.

Could it be a Frankenphone ?

Possibly, but normally the term Frankenphone refers to a gramophone assembled out of various parts/components culled from other (normally other brand) gramophones. For instance, I once spotted a Victor Victrola (one of the larger console models) fitted with a Brunswick Ultona tonearm and horn, and re-motored with a Swiss-made motor, turntable, etc.. (It had the redundant empty crank hole on the side.) I remember that it was not a very neat job.

OrthoFan

Thats what I meant.

So you don't think that this could have been a gramophone assembled out of various parts/components culled from other (normally other brand) gramophones ?

The components could have been made solely for the Primophone brand ?

[Steve]

Don't confuse Crapophones with Frankenphones. The former is a piece of crap badly put together with cheaply sourced, manufactured and assembled parts, including some older parts (usually from portables) whereas the latter tend to be decent quality machines which won't harm your records but which aren't a true original machine because they've been "restored" with non original parts or homemade replacements.

[poodling around]

Don't confuse Crapophones with Frankenphones. The former is a piece of crap badly put together with cheaply sourced, manufactured and assembled parts, including some older parts (usually from portables) whereas the latter tend to be decent quality machines which won't harm your records but which aren't a true original machine because they've been "restored" with non original parts or homemade replacements.

Good point.

I must admit that my only external horn machine is a Frankenphone. I love it. It plays any pre 1940's record really very well indeed and looks very cool indeed.

[Sherazhyder]

I own an example of the machine you show above in the period advertisement. It has NO resemblance whatsoever to anything that we now refer to as Crapophones. The design of Crapophone cabinets and horns appear to be a total flight of fancy. Not a reproduction of anything.

Yes you are right and I am not wrong as well. The crapophones are being marketed in so many different shapes. But we are talking as they all have one common design. So we both have different shapes of Crapophones in mind as we discuss here. I think I need to write a detailed article on the history of Crapophones as I have interviewed several individuals who are in this business.
Cheers

[Sherazhyder]

Don't confuse Crapophones with Frankenphones. The former is a piece of crap badly put together with cheaply sourced, manufactured and assembled parts, including some older parts (usually from portables) whereas the latter tend to be decent quality machines which won't harm your records but which aren't a true original machine because they've been "restored" with non original parts or homemade replacements.

Steve ! I fully endorse your opinion. I am very clear about what I am saying. I understand the difference between the two. I even know the history of the two types. Crapophones are from India and Frankenphones are from Pakistan. Crapophones are still being manufactured while the production of Frankenphones came to an end in mid 1990s after the death of two individuals who ran this business in Karachi Pakistan. The non availability of preowned gramophone machines also put an end to that business. The Frankenphones which are being traded now are those which had actually been ‘manufactured’ in 1970s to late 1990s.

What I am trying to bring home is the fact that the heavy brass horns of Frankenphones were true copies of Primaphone’s horn. Now when a Primaphone is brought out in the market, people take it as a fake for its horn’s resemblance to the Frankenphones. Kindly see the picture below for the similarity between the two horns.
Cheers
Sheraz

[OrthoFan]

By that definition, I think my circa 1907 Victor V would qualify as a Frankenphone!

(Click images to view full size.)

When I received it from the former owner--the granddaughter of the original owner--some 38 years ago, it has been badly damaged. (The granddaughter's former "boyfriend," call him "Bruno," had picked up the Victor V and thrown it against a wall! Fortunately, the horn was not attached at the time.)

Not only did the case need re-polishing, but one of the three mainsprings as well as the governor springs had to be replaced. The cracked apart motor board had to be re-assembled, with wooden dowels installed inside the joining edges for support. The front board was smashed, so I had to glue the parts together and cover it with a matching piece of oak veneer.

In addition, the horn is an after-market H&S style morning glory horn--repainted about 70 years ago. The horn's elbow is a "reproduction" aluminum replacement. The horn support is held in place with two conventional black painted bolts. (I was told that the originals went missing at the time the granddaughter's father owned the gramophone.) Lastly, the Exhibition sound box, which was rebuilt by the late Bob Waltrip, has a triangular hole and is obviously a replacement for the original sound box.

OrthoFan