Hand written labels

[alienj]

Hi, I'm new here! I recently purchased a Columbia BN machine and it came with 50
or so 78's. A couple of them have hand written labels. Some are in good shape, some are not.

As a newbie, I was wondering what tips anyone can give me as to the best labels, recording studios, who made the highest quality, etc.

Thanks in advance!

[ChesterCheetah18]

Photos of the handwritten labels would be helpful.

Steve

[Gramophone King 15]

You can easily play it on a standard gramophone. If it is made in or after 1925, play it on an electric. If it is made before 1925, you can use either an electric or acoustic. Handwritten labels to my knowledge are pretty rare unless it is a Berliner. I have never seen a handwritten label made after 1911

[drh]

The handwritten labels could be on test pressings, or they could be instant recording/home recording discs. As noted above, photos would help.

OK, what to play, and what *not* to play, on your BN.

Do NOT play any record on the Pathé label from before the electric era unless it says "Actuelle" as well. Even after electric recording came in, look for any reference to "sapphire" on the label. Those are definitely no-nos. They were vertically cut and designed to play with a special large-diameter sapphire stylus; steel needles will quickly destroy them, and you'll hear little or no music from your machine. (For more detail about vertical vs. lateral, here's an article I wrote: https://www.tnt-audio.com/vintage/mono-a-mono_e.html) The early ones have artist and catalogue info etched directly into the record surface and actually play from the inside out; later ones have conventional paper labels and play conventionally outside-in. They come in a mind boggling array of sizes, from 8" or so up to 20". None is suitable for your machine.

Do NOT play other record labels that emulated the Pathé system--examples include, inter alia, Rex, Rishell, and a bunch of French labels pressed by or subsidiary to Pathé, like Disque Henri, Disque Aspir, Disque Ideal, Aerophone, .... Some have the same type etched labels as the early Pathés; others have paper labels. Again, not suitable for your machine regardless. And again, any reference to "sapphire" on the label is a tip-off. If the label of a French record refers to "aiguille," which is French for "needle," you're OK.

Do NOT play Edison diamond discs, easily recognized by their ¼" thickness. Like Pathé's sapphire discs, they are vertical cut, designed to play with a special stylus (in this case, diamond). Again, no music, just noise, from your machine and quick destruction of the record with steel needles. Some Edison discs have label information molded straight into the record material; later, Edison joined the rest of the world with paper labels. The paper ones, however, were not always securely fastened to the record and not infrequently have fallen off, leaving only a blank tan cardboardy backing circle in the center of the record. The ¼" thickness continues to be a dead giveaway, however.

Do NOT play instant recording/home recording discs (possibly what you may have with handwritten labels). These had lacquer or like recording material laminated onto a metal or even glass base. They will not survive play with a reproducer like yours and steel needles.

Don't try to play "needle cut" vertical cut 78s from certain labels that later went to lateral cut, like, say, Vocalion, Gennett, and Lyric. Some very early OKeh records also fall into this category, too. I don't know that you'll hurt them, at least with a single play, but your reproducer won't give you any sound to speak of, aside from noise, either.

The good news is that you are unlikely to enounter the Pathé-type records very often "in the wild," you're even less likely to encounter needle cut verticals, and the Edisons are easily recognized.

You CAN play any standard lateral cut record from the acoustic era in conventional shellac--which is to say the vast majority of 78s up to 1925--Victor (Talking Machine Co.), Columbia (Graphophone or Phonograph Co.), Brunswick, Harmony, Cameo, Domino, Pathé Actuelle (as opposed to plain Pathé), Grey Gull/Radiex, any Vocalion or OKeh or Gennett after the earliest issues (which you're unlikely to encounter), Euorpean labels like HMV and English Columbia and Edison Bell Winner and on and on. Don't try to play records of the period that were pressed in other material, examples including Hit of the Week (a material called Durium on a cardboardy paper base) and Marconi Velvet Tone (a short-lived, somewhat flexible Columbia product aimed at offering quieter surfaces). Note, however, that Edison Bell made a standard shellac record labeled Velvet Face, and those are fine for your BN. (Edison Bell was an English company not related to US Edison or to US Columbia.)

You CAN play electrical recordings, those after 1925, as long as they are pressed in shellac, but they are not really well suited to your earlier machine. From World War II on, records began to transition into materials more like modern vinyl. V-Discs from WW II itself fall into this same category. Avoid playing those; they won't hold up to steel needles in an acoustic era reproducer. Those from the 1930s work with steel needles (even the electric pickups of the day mostly relied on them), but as time went by they were less and less engineered for the very heavy tracking force of early machines like yours, and they will tend to overdrive the early reproducer. Best to stick to acoustic records. As a rule of thumb, any Victor record mentioning "orthophonic," RCA, or having a "scroll" label (a quick Google search will show you what those look like); any Columbia record mentioning "viva tonal" or CBS; and any record on US Decca is later than ideal for your machine. Obviously, any with a label referring to "electrical process" or like words is an electrical recording.

So there you go--a set of starter tips. Happy listening!

[bensfractals]

Hi, I'm new here! I recently purchased a Columbia BN machine and it came with 50
or so 78's. A couple of them have hand written labels. Some are in good shape, some are not.

As a newbie, I was wondering what tips anyone can give me as to the best labels, recording studios, who made the highest quality, etc.

Thanks in advance!

Do these hand-written records in question have a rather thin metal(or glass) base compared to traditional 78's and give off a rather distinct scent similar to nail polish? Then that's a lacquer disc. Just as a reminder that if it is indeed a lacquer cut, DO NOT use water on it, especially if it's showing signs of decay via palmitic acid forming or the lacquer breaking off. If not, then it's probably a test pressing of some sort like drh mentioned.

[alienj]

Photos of the handwritten labels would be helpful.

Steve

I will go and take some pictures now and post them in a few minutes!

[alienj]

Hi, I'm new here! I recently purchased a Columbia BN machine and it came with 50
or so 78's. A couple of them have hand written labels. Some are in good shape, some are not.

As a newbie, I was wondering what tips anyone can give me as to the best labels, recording studios, who made the highest quality, etc.

Thanks in advance!

Do these hand-written records in question have a rather thin metal(or glass) base compared to traditional 78's and give off a rather distinct scent similar to nail polish? Then that's a lacquer disc. Just as a reminder that if it is indeed a lacquer cut, DO NOT use water on it, especially if it's showing signs of decay via palmitic acid forming or the lacquer breaking off. If not, then it's probably a test pressing of some sort like drh mentioned.

No smell that I noticed. Pictures coming.

[alienj]

The handwritten labels could be on test pressings, or they could be instant recording/home recording discs. As noted above, photos would help.

OK, what to play, and what *not* to play, on your BN.

Do NOT play any record on the Pathé label from before the electric era unless it says "Actuelle" as well. Even after electric recording came in, look for any reference to "sapphire" on the label. Those are definitely no-nos. They were vertically cut and designed to play with a special large-diameter sapphire stylus; steel needles will quickly destroy them, and you'll hear little or no music from your machine. (For more detail about vertical vs. lateral, here's an article I wrote: https://www.tnt-audio.com/vintage/mono-a-mono_e.html) The early ones have artist and catalogue info etched directly into the record surface and actually play from the inside out; later ones have conventional paper labels and play conventionally outside-in. They come in a mind boggling array of sizes, from 8" or so up to 20". None is suitable for your machine.

Do NOT play other record labels that emulated the Pathé system--examples include, inter alia, Rex, Rishell, and a bunch of French labels pressed by or subsidiary to Pathé, like Disque Henri, Disque Aspir, Disque Ideal, Aerophone, .... Some have the same type etched labels as the early Pathés; others have paper labels. Again, not suitable for your machine regardless. And again, any reference to "sapphire" on the label is a tip-off. If the label of a French record refers to "aiguille," which is French for "needle," you're OK.

Do NOT play Edison diamond discs, easily recognized by their ¼" thickness. Like Pathé's sapphire discs, they are vertical cut, designed to play with a special stylus (in this case, diamond). Again, no music, just noise, from your machine and quick destruction of the record with steel needles. Some Edison discs have label information molded straight into the record material; later, Edison joined the rest of the world with paper labels. The paper ones, however, were not always securely fastened to the record and not infrequently have fallen off, leaving only a blank tan cardboardy backing circle in the center of the record. The ¼" thickness continues to be a dead giveaway, however.

Do NOT play instant recording/home recording discs (possibly what you may have with handwritten labels). These had lacquer or like recording material laminated onto a metal or even glass base. They will not survive play with a reproducer like yours and steel needles.

Don't try to play "needle cut" vertical cut 78s from certain labels that later went to lateral cut, like, say, Vocalion, Gennett, and Lyric. Some very early OKeh records also fall into this category, too. I don't know that you'll hurt them, at least with a single play, but your reproducer won't give you any sound to speak of, aside from noise, either.

The good news is that you are unlikely to enounter the Pathé-type records very often "in the wild," you're even less likely to encounter needle cut verticals, and the Edisons are easily recognized.

You CAN play any standard lateral cut record from the acoustic era in conventional shellac--which is to say the vast majority of 78s up to 1925--Victor (Talking Machine Co.), Columbia (Graphophone or Phonograph Co.), Brunswick, Harmony, Cameo, Domino, Pathé Actuelle (as opposed to plain Pathé), Grey Gull/Radiex, any Vocalion or OKeh or Gennett after the earliest issues (which you're unlikely to encounter), Euorpean labels like HMV and English Columbia and Edison Bell Winner and on and on. Don't try to play records of the period that were pressed in other material, examples including Hit of the Week (a material called Durium on a cardboardy paper base) and Marconi Velvet Tone (a short-lived, somewhat flexible Columbia product aimed at offering quieter surfaces). Note, however, that Edison Bell made a standard shellac record labeled Velvet Face, and those are fine for your BN. (Edison Bell was an English company not related to US Edison or to US Columbia.)

You CAN play electrical recordings, those after 1925, as long as they are pressed in shellac, but they are not really well suited to your earlier machine. From World War II on, records began to transition into materials more like modern vinyl. V-Discs from WW II itself fall into this same category. Avoid playing those; they won't hold up to steel needles in an acoustic era reproducer. Those from the 1930s work with steel needles (even the electric pickups of the day mostly relied on them), but as time went by they were less and less engineered for the very heavy tracking force of early machines like yours, and they will tend to overdrive the early reproducer. Best to stick to acoustic records. As a rule of thumb, any Victor record mentioning "orthophonic," RCA, or having a "scroll" label (a quick Google search will show you what those look like); any Columbia record mentioning "viva tonal" or CBS; and any record on US Decca is later than ideal for your machine. Obviously, any with a label referring to "electrical process" or like words is an electrical recording.

So there you go--a set of starter tips. Happy listening!

OMG! Thank you for taking the time to provide me with so much information. I truly appreciate it. I looked through the records and made a list of the labels. A couple of them were mentioned in your post. I have another question. Most of the records are Columbia label. It seems like every Columbia label has a different font, different color, etc. Do these indicate anything in particular (i. e., different color=different year made?) I've attached photos of two of the Columbia labels, both songs by Roy Acuff. I've also attached photos of the handwritten label (West Virginia Wildcats, though I've not been able to find any info on the Wildcats... Except as a high school football team). Thanks, again, everyone! This is fun!

Here's my list of labels.

01. Atlantic
02. Bluebird
03. Brunswick
04. Capital
05. Columbia
06. Cross Records
07. Decca
08. Grey Gull
09. King DeeJay Special
10. MGM
11. Majestic
12. Mercury
13. Music City Song Crafters
(partially typed label - Song
Title and Artist's Name)
14. Okeh
15. Paramount
16. Puritan
17. RCA Victor
18. Velvet Tone
19. Victor
20. Vocalion

[Curt A]

What Paramount titles do you have?

[drh]

Here's my list of labels.

* 01. Atlantic
* 02. Bluebird
03. Brunswick
* 04. Capital
05. Columbia
(don't know this one) 06. Cross Records
* 07. Decca
08. Grey Gull
* 09. King DeeJay Special (King was a late label; as a "DeeJay special, may well be a vinyl pressing--dunno, but be careful)
* 10. MGM
* 11. Majestic
* 12. Mercury
* 13. Music City Song Crafters
(partially typed label - Song
Title and Artist's Name) (instant recording disk--see below)
14. Okeh
15. Paramount
16. Puritan
* 17. RCA Victor
18. Velvet Tone
19. Victor
20. Vocalion

Glad to help--at least, I hope I did! First off, your "handwritten" record is indeed a home recording disk, lacquer or the like on a metal base. It will not survive play with your machine.

In your list, I'm putting an asterisk * by labels that are certainly electric recordings, and hence, albeit probably playable on it, not especially well suited to your machine.

Of the rest, Victor citing RCA is always electrical. If not (i.e., without reference to RCA but instead citing "Victor Talking Machine Company") it may or may not be electric but most likely will be acoustic, unless it has a scroll type label; for a short time, Victor issued electrical records with its acoustical type label (known as the "batwings label"); to tell whether you have one of those, if you find a little "VE" in an oval in the deadwax next to the label, it's electric ("VE"--"Victor Electric). If not, it's acoustic and well suited to your machine. Any Victor record with a label referring to "grand prize" is acoustic.

Paramount, if it has an eagle at the top of the label and is in decent shape, *could* be valuable. A lot of early blues artists and such recorded on that label, and their records can be very hotly sought today. We'd need more photos, or at least a list of titles, and I'll defer to others more expert in that field for further info; I'm a classical/opera guy, not a blues collector. In all events, until you figure out what youi have there, I wouldn't let steel needles anywhere near any of them.

Vocalion may or may not be acoustic. If it has a blue label with gold print as shown in this article https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vessel_78cart_e.html it's electric. If its label refers to Aeolian or (at least usually) Brunswick, it's acoustic and well suited to your machine. Same kind of story with OKeh; may or may not be electric. If it has the CBS logo (usually with a lavender label), it's electric. If it refers to "General Phonograph Corp." it's acoustic. If it has the Statue of Liberty or an Indian head on it, it's also acoustic. If it says "electric" on the label, you know what that means!

Brunswick can be either electric or acoustic. The Wikipedia article on Brunswick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunswick_Records shows a typical Brunswick label for an acoustic record (the one from 1922). The black ones with gold print are more than likely electrical. The black ones with silver print are always electrical.

I'm vaguely recalling that Velvet Tone can go either way, but I think they tend to be electric; look for clues like "new process recording" or a "VE" type marking, or the like. No harm in playing one on your machine either way, but electric may overdrive the reproducer or be strident or whatnot.

Columbia--They go all over the map. The ones you photographed are electrical, and I'd be careful with the white label one; as a DJ copy, it may (or may not) be a late vinyl pressing. In all events, much too late to be a good match for your machine. Red label Columbias like the one you photographed are '40s vintage electrical pressings, although the actual recordings can be earlier; a lot of jazz from the '20s and '30s got reissued on that label. Note the CBS logo, the "magic notes" in one circle intersecting a circle with a little microphone with "CBS" over it. When those are present, the record is always, or nearly always, electrical. Earlier Columbia labels with the words "viva tonal" are always electric. If the label has the notes in a big circle with "Columbia Grafonola" over them, it's always acoustic. If it refers to grand prizes at exhibitions, it's always acoustic. If it has what looks like bunting with the record data in a while rectangle, as in this eBay listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/155247240801, it's almost certainly acoustic. If it has a tricolor banner arcing across the label like in the article I linked above for Vocalion, it's always acoustic. One trick: as with Victor, look at the deadwax by the label. If you see a little W in a circle, it's an electric recording (made by the early Western Electric process, hence "W").

Grey Gull--I think most of these were acoustic. To the extent that they aren't, I think the label mentions something about "electric recording." Others more versed with the label can probably offer better guidance.

I hope this helps and isn't "information overload"!