Black / Shellac Dust On Needle After Playing, Tried Everything

[Lah Ca]

What tone needles are you using now? And what tone were you using?

If your records have been played only with loud and or medium tone needles and you have switched to soft or extra-soft tone, what you are seeing might be rubble stirred up by a needle that rides lower in the record grooves.

[CarlosV]

The needles are not necessarily the culprits for erosion of the record groove. A misaligned or a non-compliant soundbox will degrade records irrespective of the needle utilized.

[OddRomanian]

What tone needles are you using now? And what tone were you using?

If your records have been played only with loud and or medium tone needles and you have switched to soft or extra-soft tone, what you are seeing might be rubble stirred up by a needle that rides lower in the record grooves.

Thank you for the answer!
I have only ever used soft tone needles, never had any other tone needles.

[OddRomanian]

The needles are not necessarily the culprits for erosion of the record groove. A misaligned or a non-compliant soundbox will degrade records irrespective of the needle utilized.

Thank you!

Do you have any tips to rule out a mechanical problem from the gramophone / soundbox?

[OddRomanian]

Where are you located? I could send you some new old stock multi play needles to try. If they get the grit as well there is something else going on.

What era/ brand of gramophone and soundbox?

Thank you for the answer!

I use a 1936 HMV 102B with a 5A soundbox

I am located in Spain

Thank you very much for the offer! I truly appreciate It : )

[gramophone-georg]

PM me with your shipping info please. I will gladly send some if you will cover my postage charges from USA. Fair enough? If you'd rather try to find something more local to you no offense taken at all. Maybe Inigo could help as he is in Barcelona (I think!). Another option is to try fibre needles until you get this sorted.

Your issue can also be caused by hardened gaskets in the soundbox, soundbox bar adjusted too tight, a hardened isolator between the box and tone arm tube, or the tone arm joints not swinging freely at their pivots. I am not sure if you have an autobrake on your machine, but too much tension on the tripper could also be an issue.

There's always that outside chance that it really is the needles, but this seems odd if they are from Soundgen from all I have heard. Trying some other known good needles can certainly be a good diagnostic tool.

[Inigo]

Hi, I'm in Madrid, and I can help, of course.
If the only thing you've changed is the needle supply, 80% probably culprit is the needles, being Soundgen or whatever; examine the points to see if all is alright. Or may likely be that they are a different thickness, much finer, and they ride on the bottom of the groove and scratch it. With modern soft soundgen needles I’ve noticed they have a very fine point and are extremely fine for the grooves. One good trick is to play first the final locked groove at the center of the record by several turns, and this will kill the too acute point; then take the tonearm to the beginning of the record and play it.
The other 20% may be another thing or subtle change that you're not aware of .. slightly different angle in the soundbox, something that has broken inside, etc.
But there is also another reason. I may get enemies herein for saying this, but... With all the good sound the HMV 102 has, the practical and comfortable operation, the endurance, the beauty and it all --we all love it-- it's one of the worst machines I've ever seen regarding the tracking angle of the soundbox. I’ve ruined records playing them on this machine. Maybe it was already happening and you didn’t notice it.
For instance, spanish super-soft shellac pressings of late forties to mid fifties, like the latest Odeons in the 184000/185000/203000 series, the high number GYs or Regals, etc. all shellac products by Gramofono-Odeon of that era, the ones with a pressed ring around the center, maybe 3cm diameter. All these late pressings were very good shellac, very soft and rich, intended to reduce hiss noise, which they do... But they’re aimed to be played on light pickups, and for the good they play on acoustic machines, they become ruined and greyed in a dozen plays. And the progress is so fast... nothing at the first plays, and suddenly the record starts to degrade and become grey. It is simply that they don’t work well on these machines. Same happens to the late forties Columbia records, those in the high R-14000 and the later R-18000 series and the like. After 1948, all spanish pressings become softer, and are ruined when played on acoustic machines, especially these portables with short tonearms and bad alignment. I’ve seen much better results in the large consoles which have very long tonearms and good tracking.
Simply this later shellac composition is too sensitive and will accuse any condition that is not ideal.
I recommend you to try bamboo or cactus needles... although in my experience, with these portables they don’t work too well. On these late pressings they don’t; the bamboo burns out the grooves.
With acoustic machines you must play only pre-1945 records, I almost say only pre-war records. The more modern ones are easily ruined.

[JerryVan]

I am left to wonder what the condition of your records are to begin with. In my thinking, if the grooves are already worn, the otherwise smooth surfaces of the groove walls will have been roughed/scored/worn and will likely be more susceptible to further degredation with each playing. So, if you have a record that has lost groove material, it may continue to do so no matter what steel needle you use. Just my theory anyway.

[Hoodoo]

I think Gramophone Georg’s suggestion that it might be the auto brake mechanism causing the problem is a good one.
Try moving the tonearm through its arc by hand with the auto brake engaged. It should move freely with VERY little resistance.

[Lah Ca]

Switch to thorn or bamboo needles.

They require maintenance as they are re-usable. You can often get more than one play out of them before they need resharpening, and you can resharpen them many times before they are too short to be used again.

They reduce record wear. The also seem to reduce record noise.

Bamboo: I do not know of a source of new bamboo needles. But you can make your own with a little practice (see Youtube), but these will not be as durable as vintage ones which were treated to harden them. The needle chuck on your HMV machine will have a triangular aperture to accept these needles. When they wear down you can re-tip them. A needle sharpener/cutter is handy, but these are expensive and hard to come by if they are in good working condition. They can also be re-tipped, cut with a sharp razor knife or sanded down to a tip with a fine emery cloth.

Thorn: A variety of thorns were used for thorn needles. I have a supply of vintage cactus needles. Member Orchosol sells modern Burmese Colour Needles, which by all accounts that have reached my ears and eyes, are quite wonderful. To resharpen these well you need a special rotary tool, a bit hard (but not impossible) to find in good working order, and a bit expensive. I have also seen re-sharpening kits with little sanding boards, like small nail boards, with different grades of sand paper attached. I have the remnants of one of these kits. They work, sort of, but the results are much poorer than with the rotary tool.