Viva-Tonal 800 and 810 Columbia Horn Structure

[Watanabehi]

Hello everyone,

I am really interested in the structure of their horn. According to a phonograph book, it has a re-entrant horn, but it is really hard to find out what kind of detail structures of the horn. Does anyone know about it? Thanks.

Hideki

[OrthoFan]

There's a photo of the back of the horn used on the 800-series (American) Viva Tonal on this site -- https://www.intertique.com/VivaTonal810IDDemo.html Not really re-entrant; more like a double horn as you can see from the patent illustration -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US171 ... graph+Horn

The smaller horn used on the mid-sized (American) 700-series models had a horn with a divider positioned horizontally in the center, as shown here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/196581996058

FROM -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

The UK manufactured Viva Tonal models were fitted with bifurcated metal horns, but they weren't re-entrant. They were dived into two sections which joined at the mouth. I've posted several photos of these on this forum, but they're all lost.

OrthoFan

[Watanabehi]

There's a photo of the back of the horn used on the 800-series (American) Viva Tonal on this site -- https://www.intertique.com/VivaTonal810IDDemo.html Not really re-entrant; more like a double horn as you can see from the patent illustration -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US171 ... graph+Horn

American Viva-Tonal Horn Patent Drawing.jpg


The smaller horn used on the mid-sized (American) 700-series models had a horn with a divider positioned horizontally in the center, as shown here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/196581996058

Columbia American Viva-Tonal Horn 700 models.jpg
FROM -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

The UK manufactured Viva Tonal models were fitted with bifurcated metal horns, but they weren't re-entrant. They were dived into two sections which joined at the mouth. I've posted several photos of these on this forum, but they're all lost.

OrthoFan

Thank you so much. It is very interesting to know how it is constructed. I wonder it is following exponential sound theory like Western Electric's.

Hideki

[Watanabehi]

There's a photo of the back of the horn used on the 800-series (American) Viva Tonal on this site -- https://www.intertique.com/VivaTonal810IDDemo.html Not really re-entrant; more like a double horn as you can see from the patent illustration -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US171 ... graph+Horn

American Viva-Tonal Horn Patent Drawing.jpg


The smaller horn used on the mid-sized (American) 700-series models had a horn with a divider positioned horizontally in the center, as shown here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/196581996058

Columbia American Viva-Tonal Horn 700 models.jpg
FROM -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

The UK manufactured Viva Tonal models were fitted with bifurcated metal horns, but they weren't re-entrant. They were dived into two sections which joined at the mouth. I've posted several photos of these on this forum, but they're all lost.

OrthoFan

The horn structure of the 800 horn seems quite different from the blue print you sent me. I wonder somebody has the blue print of the 800 and 810 horn. I attached the front horn photo.

[OrthoFan]

Here's two more patents for other large Viva-Tonal horns.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

https://patents.google.com/patent/US178 ... graph+horn

There may be more.

[Watanabehi]

Here's two more patents for other large Viva-Tonal horns.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

https://patents.google.com/patent/US178 ... graph+horn

There may be more.

Those blue prints are amazing. Thank you so much.

Hideki

[Watanabehi]

Here's two more patents for other large Viva-Tonal horns.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

https://patents.google.com/patent/US178 ... graph+horn

There may be more.

Those blue prints are amazing. Thank you so much.

Hideki

I sort of calculated the length of the 810 horn and it seems to be about 10 feet. Can anybody do that in a more precise way based on the blue print? Thanks.

Hideki

[Watanabehi]

Here's two more patents for other large Viva-Tonal horns.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US175 ... graph+horn

https://patents.google.com/patent/US178 ... graph+horn

There may be more.

Those blue prints are amazing. Thank you so much.

Hideki

I sort of calculated the length of the 810 horn and it seems to be about 10 feet. Can anybody do that in a more precise way based on the blue print? Thanks.

Hideki

[An Balores]

'Orthofan' says "The UK manufactured Viva Tonal models were fitted with bifurcated metal horns, but they weren't re-entrant. They were dived into two sections which joined at the mouth."
So is there any benefit to this arrangement? I can't see it myself.....

[OrthoFan]

'Orthofan' says "The UK manufactured Viva Tonal models were fitted with bifurcated metal horns, but they weren't re-entrant. They were dived into two sections which joined at the mouth."
So is there any benefit to this arrangement? I can't see it myself.....

From the videos on Youtube, there does seem to be an enhancement in sound quality, compared to earlier designs. The UK based collectors would have far more knowledge about this than I do, but essentially, the bifurcated design allowed a much longer--more gradually tapered--horn, with a larger mouth, to be fitted into conventional size cabinets. The horn, which had an exponential style taper, was coupled to a gradually tapered tonearm fitted with a new style sound box equipped with an aluminum diaphragm, as was the case with most other sound boxes produced at that time.

Another design--unique to Viva-Tonal models produced in the UK--employed the "Plano-Reflex" style horn and tonearm. You can find quite a lot about this online by doing a search for Columbia Plano-Reflex.

Here's an illustration showing both the bifurcated and Plano-Reflex style horns --

FROM --

percy-wilson-modern-gramophones-1929.pdf

(7.95 MiB) Downloaded 19 times

As for the horn fitted into the Columbia 810, ten feet seems to be about right. Only Victor (and eventually the Gramophone Company) had the right to produce a folded exponential horn based one the Western Electric design, which included the taper and length of the overall sound chamber based on the numbers Western Electric (Maxfield & Harrison) came up with. All other manufacturers had to go it their own way.

OrthoFan