Garbeled sound from my standard Model D

[CraigDeShong]

Hi Folks

A rather long introductory post I know but please bear with me.

I have several antique phonographs but the topic of this post is my Edison standard model “D” cylinder phonograph. I'm a fairly old guy (in my late 70's) and I got this phonograph way back in the 1960's in my teens. I bought it as a collection of dis-assembled parts and, to the bast of my ability, re-assembled it. I ended up sending it to a guy named “Nugent” who lived in Virginia for repair. Mr. Nugent replaced the broken main spring, replaced the main mandrel sleeve bearing (with a ball bearing), and rebuilt the Diamond “B” reproducer; all to get it working again.

With the phonograph came a plethora of “blue amberol” cylinders in various conditions. I've augmented this collection with several I've bought privately (I really like Ada Jones).

The phonograph has never played any of cylinders I have (those that came with it or those I've bought) what I would say “well”. Its hard to say what it is doing but it appears to play several “groves” of a cylinder concurrently, while occasionally skipping over several groves. The carriage tracking mechanism appears to be operating correctly and it is set to 4 minutes for the 4 minute cyllinders

This phonograph doesn't get exercised much, often years pass between times I play it. I will admit that it seems to do better after it's played a while in that a cylinder which it plays poorly at first will play better after the phonograph runs a while (maybe ½ hour) but never as good as I'm thinking it should. I would expect that a few of the cylinders I have would play nearly flawlessly (without garble and without skipping across tracks) but that doesn't ever happen. Years ago I was up to Orange New Jersey at the Edison museum and the phonographs there play with a clarity that my Standard Model D never has. Even my other Edison Home Phonograph tracks wax cylinders far better then the Standard model does.

So what I'm saying is: I think there is something wrong with the Diamond “B” reproducer on my standard phonograph. Maybe Nuget botched the job of replacing the stylus?

I'm open for suggestions.

Thanks for your time.

[outune]

Hi- That's a nice looking machine--- It sounds like you have looked into some of the main causes-- Be sure the gearing is set for 4 minutes-- Be sure the reproducer is fully seated in the carriage-- Does the weight on the reproducer move laterally with ease-- not tight? (To me that may be the reason for the issue you describe) Have you oiled the rod that the carriage slides on as well as the threaded rod the half-nut engages? ..also a drop of oil on the center of the little tension wheel that presses on the belt below the bedplate so that it spins freely.
Are you in Virginia? (You mentioned Mr. Nugent from VA having worked on your machine)- I'm in Northern Virginia and would be glad to help.

Brad Abell

[Lucius1958]

Hi- That's a nice looking machine--- It sounds like you have looked into some of the main causes-- Be sure the gearing is set for 4 minutes-- Be sure the reproducer is fully seated in the carriage-- Does the weight on the reproducer move laterally with ease-- not tight? (To me that may be the reason for the issue you describe) Have you oiled the rod that the carriage slides on as well as the threaded rod the half-nut engages? ..also a drop of oil on the center of the little tension wheel that presses on the belt below the bedplate so that it spins freely.
Are you in Virginia? (You mentioned Mr. Nugent from VA having worked on your machine)- I'm in Northern Virginia and would be glad to help.

Brad Abell

Good analysis: sounds rather like the problem I had early on with a Diamond C - the weight pivot.

-Bill

[FellowCollector]

I think there is something wrong with the Diamond “B” reproducer on my standard phonograph. Maybe Nuget botched the job of replacing the stylus?

In addition to Brad's helpful comments, your comment above may also be concerning. If Mr. Nugent replaced the diamond stylus in the reproducer along with the other repairs, coupled with the fact that the phonograph has never played well, it is within the realm of possibility that the replaced diamond stylus may be at least part of the problem. A careful examination of the stylus under magnification will reveal any abnormalities. Also, and for what it's worth, I always use a camel hair brush to remove any accumulated debris from the stylus after playing a cylinder - especially if the cylinder has not been played in a while or appears even slightly dusty or soiled. Dust and various other debris on a stylus can result in slightly distorted sound - although not missed or skipped grooves. If you're comfortable with posting a video of the phonograph playing it might be useful.

Doug

[JerryVan]

Playing multiple grooves at the same time, (creating an echo effect, which seems to be what you're describing), is the sure sign of a bad stylus. It makes me wonder what Mr. Nugent used for a replacement stylus "way back when". Proper replacements have not always been available, therefore, past restorers have used a whole host of odd "fixes" and makeshift replacements. Can you please take a close-up photo of your current stylus? It won't necessarily tell us if there is wear on an original stylus, but it will let us know if it's a total botch job.

Also, as others have indicated, be sure the feedscrew is shifted to the 4 minute position and that the swivel joint for the reproducer weight is completely free to swing right & left. Any sticking or resistance in that joint will cause skipping and distortion.

Swivel joint...

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[phonogfp]

There was at least one "parts supplier" back in the 60s/70s who was using ball-point pen tips as replacement styli. A clear picture of your Reproducer's stylus might be helpful.

George P.

[CraigDeShong]

Firstly, thanks to all of your for your suggestions.

By the way, I currently live in Raleigh, North Carolina.

I have noticed that I get a lot more track skipping when the screw identified in Jerry Vans post is tightened down to where the reproducer weight doesn't move freely in the lateral direction (as Brad suggested). If I leave it a bit loose the tracking does improve but not to an acceptable level.

I don't know what material was used to replace the stylus; I've attached a photo but it provably isn't clear enough to tell.

I have included a video with audio of the phonograph. It's playing a cylinder I purchased from eBay a few years ago. He seller had a good feedback rating, and he stated that the cylinder played well on his phonograph. The cylinder looks clean, isn't warped, and doesn't show visible wear.

I'm thinking that I probably need to send the reproducer away and have it evaluated and probably repaired. If there is agreement, some suggestions of a reputable repair person would be welcomed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPqIo4EL-jM

[JerryVan]

I have noticed that I get a lot more track skipping when the screw identified in Jerry Vans post is tightened down to where the reproducer weight doesn't move freely in the lateral direction (as Brad suggested). If I leave it a bit loose the tracking does improve but not to an acceptable level.

That's the first thing to fix. You should be able to tighten the screw and have no resistance at all. Don't just oil it. Remove the screw and polish the shoulder, (the diameter just under the head). Then, with a q-tip and some solvent, (lacquer thinner, acetone, denatured alcohol, etc.), swab out the hole to remove old, dried oil and dirt. With the screw out, be very careful. The back end of the reproducer weight will be hanging free. Might even be helpful to wrap a rubber band around the weight and reproducer body so it can't get away and do damage, (since its only other connection point is the delicate diaphragm). Once the screw and screw hole has been cleaned, replace the screw and add some thin oil, (not 3-in-1 oil).

The general appearance of the stylus seems okay. That doesn't mean it isn't worn, but at least it looks like an Edison stylus and not some odd substitute.

[CraigDeShong]

Bingo. You guys are the BEST !!!!!!!

I took your advice and worked on the swivel joint on the reproducer. It was, pretty much, frozen stiff. I ended up running a 5/32 inch ream through it to free it up; then as you suggested I thoroughly cleaned everything up with acetone and re-assembled. I was rewarded with a free swivel but no “slop” in the joint. The results of this simple “fix” are amazing.

The phonograph plays the “rainbow” cylinder I the last post flawlessly as well as MANY/MOST of my other cylinders. I have over 100 cylinders and all that I've tried so far all play very well.

I can't thank y'all enough. It's nice to finally get this thing running properly; it's been a dis-appointment for decades.

I've included a recording of it playing one of my favorites; a cylinder on which it used to skip and then double play tracks. You can see it plays this cylinder perfectly now.

Alan Lindquest singing Mother Machree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFdTtkexxzU


Maybe I should start another thread but, while I have your ear... What do you use to bridge between the cygnet horn and the reproducer? I'm currently using a roll of paper; till now it hasn't been a priority item but with the phonograph working well I'd like to get something more permanent in place.

Thanks again. I REALLY appreciate you help.

[Inigo]

I think they use a rubber tube... (I'm a profane on cylinders, but much interested in the forum and I follow every thread)
Nice machine, and what a satisfaction it's to get rid of a problem and make it play good... Congratulations