Sonora Queen Anne in range

[gramophoneshane]

That's all well & good, but the thing is that what I have written is NOT MY DEFINITION, but the definition of first & second generation collectors, from before I was even born.

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Years ago I had a Sonora " Trovatore" model...which was what the cheapish one was called for the Canadian market at least. It was oak and was an attractive machine, but it's sound was mediocre. The Sonora tone arm, like so many off brand machines, was not tapering like that of Victor . Sonora had no desire it seems to run afoul with the Victor legal department. There was a very real acoustic reason that Victor used the tapering arm and defended the patent so furiously. The Sonora off-centre horn, I suspect, wasn't the best design either, so all in all the sound is acceptable, but nothing like a Victor or a Brunswick. Speaking of the latter, they did use a tapering arm and I believe they were sued by Victor because of that fact, but the court case dragged on long enough that by the time the judgement came down the patent had expired.

Jim

[bbphonoguy]

Well, it seems that what makes an "off brand" is a matter of opinion. I never thought it had much to do with quality, but with exposure. Sonora phonographs are well known, were fairly popular when new, and had a national (rather than local) appeal, similar to Silvertone.

To go by the rules laid out in these posts. I would have to consider Brunswick as being an off brand too, and they were the 3rd largest phonograph company around, for a while anyway. That's why I'd consider these as "lesser brands". They were a big deal, but not as big as the so called "big three".

Well, if you want to invent a new term for "lesser brands" there's nothing stopping you, but in it's original context, ANYTHING EXCEPT Edison, Columbia & Victor/HMV (incorporating pre 1901 Victor & pre 1897 Gramophone Co Berliner machines) were called off-brand machines.
These were the only brands of machine that original collectors would touch, right up into the mid 1970s, and even then it was only external horn models that were considered collectible. Everything else was considered worthless junk.
In 1969, if a collector bought a Brunswick, Sonora, Chenney, Rexonola, Paillard, Thorens, Academy, Gilbert, or Vocalion, they would have been laughed at for wasting money on an "off-brand" machine, even though all these companies were well known & had plenty of both national & internation exposure.

Well, here's another tempest in a teapot. So the term "off brand" was invented by first generation collectors. So what? It doesn't look as if the term is something we agree on, and again, so what? You wish to refer to everything not made by Victor, Columbia,and Edison as "off brand". Okay. I don't.

By your own examples, it seems that the early collectors' attitudes towards some "off brands" is no longer valid, so perhaps their terminology is no longer valid as well.

If the phonograph police want to make me turn in my collector's card, I guess I'll survive that blow too.

[Victrolaman]

I agree with new owner. That's my 4 cents.. Didn't have 6 cents so I gave 4

[AZ*]

*

That wasn't very polite.

[OrthoFan]

*

Well, I normally go what my friend Merriam says:

1.
off-brand
Adjective: Denoting or relating to an item of retail goods of an unknown, unpopular, or inferior brand.

Noun: An unknown, unpopular, or inferior brand. More ??
Merriam-Webster

Of course, the American Heritage restricts the definition further:

off-brand (ôfbrnd, f-)
adj. -- Of or being a product sold inexpensively under a relatively unfamiliar brand name and often considered inferior to better known brands.
off-brand n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

---------------------------------------------------------

[gramophoneshane]

It wasn't meant to be.

* I just love these annonomous guest posts
All I can say is that your dictionary definition doesn't strictly apply here. You are trying to say that only an inferior product can be labelled off-brand, which quite simply is not true!
What is "inferior" about a Klingsor for example, or my Newington pictured below? It has a fine quality cabinet, a quality Garrard motor, and Gilbert sound box, and the sound & build quality urinates over anything Victor/HMV made with with the same size horn & Exhibition soundbox.
So is Newington an off-brand?...of course it is. I doubt you've even heard of or seen another one before, but it IS still an off-brand machine.

[Edisone]

Rude-ish replies aside, "off-brand" is dated back to 1892 by Webster, so predates phono collectors by many decades. A machine which didn't have a network of national dealers & advertising is what "off-brand" refers to. No well-known "Brand", in other words. If it was put together by a local or regional furniture dealer, it was off-brand. If it had ads in the Saturday Evening Post, National Geographic, Munsey's, etc etc - THAT is 'ON" brand. So: Victor, Columbia, Brunswick, Edison, Pathé, and A-V are what I would consider major "brands" in America before 1930. Europe had its own major brands, of course - but the idea is the same. A furniture or department store with its own name on a phono, which might be made by or with parts from any factory = "off brand".

We shouldn't be using words like "moron" here. An apology might be in order.


ps: The machine in question, with its major woodwork problems, would have to be very close to free for me to consider it. Not worth the cost and effort to make decent.

[antique1973]

the term off-brand isn't being used pejoratively or even subjectively for that matter to describe the relative aesthetic or mechanical worth of a given machine. as explained above, it's simply referring not only to the smaller, non-major ("big three") US manufacturers (victor, edison and columbia... or abroad, hmv and Pathé, I'd imagine), but also to the companies, like sonora, that were simply smaller players in the business as a whole, in that they managed a much smaller phonograph market share because the primary production interests were elsewhere (furniture, pianos, etc.), and tended to use parts, components, cabinets and such produced by outfits other than themselves. a company like victor did everything in-house, an off-brand - albeit better-known off-brand - like sonora did not. that they are an off-brand, however, hardly diminishes the quality of their machines, though... well, the sound quality on most isn't the best, but the company used some of the better crafted cabinets and solid motors, and rarely if ever used pot metal for anything.

This is my view as well for the record. I don't consider "offbranders" to be a derogatory term. It is only to describe
the various brands other than the largest manufacturers. My main reason for avoiding offbrand machines is the difficulty in finding the unique and scarce parts that many of them employ.

[antique1973]

ps: The machine in question, with its major woodwork problems, would have to be very close to free for me to consider it. Not worth the cost and effort to make decent.[/quote]


I came to the same conclusion. If the cabinet was fancier though I would pick it up for $100.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/atq/2592172122.html