Trouble getting soundbox apart

[bart1927]

The one in your last post is pot metal.
The easiest way to tell is by looking at the rubber flange gasket at the back. On the one above, the rubber extends "past" the metal tube that the rubber grommet is mounted in, but all brass No.4's will have that rubber grommet flush with the metal casing, as pictured below on the left.
To be really sure, you can always get the earliest version where the soundbox information is visible through the mica diaphragm, as pictured below on the right. The ones with writing behind the mica were never made in pot metal, so you'll know it's definately brass if that is the case.

Thanks for the explanation. In that case: Who has a nice brass nr 4 for sale for me? I prefer one without writing behind the mica, since they are not original to my 101.

I check Ebay on a regular basis but most nr 4's I found are either pot-metal or looking like crap.

The best thing would be if someone sells restored brass HMV no 4"s of course.........

[gramophoneshane]

Do you know what year your machine was made?
The ones with writing behind the mica were used well into 1926 AFAIK.
Here's a better pic of the back flange as well. If it looks like this & doesn't extend past the metal (and it's original) then it's a brass No.4

[bart1927]

Do you know what year your machine was made?
The ones with writing behind the mica were used well into 1926 AFAIK.
Here's a better pic of the back flange as well. If it looks like this & doesn't extend past the metal (and it's original) then it's a brass No.4

I don't know from which year my machine is. But I believe that the early style nr 4 soundbox (with the writing behind the mica) was only used on the earliest 101's with the winding handle in the front.

[Steve]

Bart, you should listen to gramophoneshane, he knows what he's talking about! Don't get all hung up on the 'writing behind the mica' version of this soundbox and contrary to what you've said most No.4 s on Ebay are all BRASS. The pot metal no. 4 is quite a rare beast as it only appears on the last ever 101's. Just think about it, the 101 was sold in very very high numbers with BRASS NO.4. Factor in the amount of spares sold and that's a lot of potential No. 4's out there of the brass type. The brass no. 4 was also used on various table and cabinet models and is not exclusive to the 101. There are hundreds if not thousands of them out there. I would stop wasting your time with rubbishy pot metal no.4's and get a brass example off Ebay.

As Gshane has stated (and myself countless times in the not-too-distant past - apologies to Brianu and others who must be getting fed up with the topic ) it is easy to tell the two apart. The rubber flange is the give-away clue.

And yes, your 101 has NICKEL fittings and does not have an auto-brake so it is the more common variety and should have a BRASS no.4 anyway. Just chuck out those lousy pot metal ones and get yourself an all BRASS bodied example. It will be the right plating too!

As for the earlier No.4s with writing behind the mica, they were available into 1926 and appear on other machines as well: 156,103,511 etc. They are not exclusively for front-winding 101's. As your 101 is not the earliest type I would plump for a 'standard' brass No.4 with nickel plating. That is what your machine should have on it, not a pot metal chrome plated example.

[bart1927]

Bart, you should listen to gramophoneshane, he knows what he's talking about! Don't get all hung up on the 'writing behind the mica' version of this soundbox and contrary to what you've said most No.4 s on Ebay are all BRASS. The pot metal no. 4 is quite a rare beast as it only appears on the last ever 101's. Just think about it, the 101 was sold in very very high numbers with BRASS NO.4. Factor in the amount of spares sold and that's a lot of potential No. 4's out there of the brass type. The brass no. 4 was also used on various table and cabinet models and is not exclusive to the 101. There are hundreds if not thousands of them out there. I would stop wasting your time with rubbishy pot metal no.4's and get a brass example off Ebay.

As Gshane has stated (and myself countless times in the not-too-distant past - apologies to Brianu and others who must be getting fed up with the topic ) it is easy to tell the two apart. The rubber flange is the give-away clue.

And yes, your 101 has NICKEL fittings and does not have an auto-brake so it is the more common variety and should have a BRASS no.4 anyway. Just chuck out those lousy pot metal ones and get yourself an all BRASS bodied example. It will be the right plating too!

As for the earlier No.4s with writing behind the mica, they were available into 1926 and appear on other machines as well: 156,103,511 etc. They are not exclusively for front-winding 101's. As your 101 is not the earliest type I would plump for a 'standard' brass No.4 with nickel plating. That is what your machine should have on it, not a pot metal chrome plated example.

Hi Steve, first of all let me say that I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone. That was never my intention, nor do I want to contradict people who obviously know more about the subject than I do.

However, I'm afraid you misunderstood my remark about the early no 4 soundbox. I know it wasn't used exclusively on the front winding 101. What I meant was that as far as I know the only 101's with this particular soundbox are the ones that are front winding.

O(f course I immediately believe you that potmetal ones are much rarer than brass ones. But I guess I just have beaten the odds. I currently have 5 no 4's, 3 of which I bought on Ebay. Only one of them is brass.

I've checked Ebay many times now for brass no 4 soundboxes, but I don't seem to find any. Almost all HMV soundboxes I find are either 5B's or 5A's, and the only no 4 I can find right now is a terrible looking pot metal one from some guy in India.

But maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or using the wrong search words...........

[OrthoSean]

Hey Bart,

Are you looking on eBay.uk rather than eBay.com? That's likely your best bet!

Good Luck!

Sean

[Steve]

I currently have 5 no 4's, 3 of which I bought on Ebay. Only one of them is brass.

Poor, Bart. No, seriously, you have been really unlucky there, it's quite unbelievable. I once needed a pot-metal No.4 and couldn't find one anywhere, Ebay or not. My advice is to just keep looking, one will turn up soon. And BTW, you never offended anyone to my knowledge, certainly not me. I just think that one or two members have made noises to the effect that this has been answered already etc.

[bart1927]

I currently have 5 no 4's, 3 of which I bought on Ebay. Only one of them is brass.

Poor, Bart. No, seriously, you have been really unlucky there, it's quite unbelievable. I once needed a pot-metal No.4 and couldn't find one anywhere, Ebay or not. My advice is to just keep looking, one will turn up soon. And BTW, you never offended anyone to my knowledge, certainly not me. I just think that one or two members have made noises to the effect that this has been answered already etc.

I'm relieved to hear that. Well, if you ever need a potmetal nr 4 again, you know who to turn to.

[David Spanovich]

Hi Bart:

After glancing over the post string, I noticed that nobody mentioned this, so I thought I would --

Based on what is shown in your first photo, you started your repair by unscrewing the back screws, and prying the edges of the back plate to open it. Going forward, it's a good idea to disconnect the needle-bar's foot from the diaphragm--if at all possible--before opening or removing the back plate. This applies to all types of sound boxes.

As noted above, oftentimes, the petrified gaskets are stuck to the sound box casing, as well as the diaphragm. In this case, if the needle bar foot is still connected, prying off the back may cause the diaphragm to fracture, and the needle bar to bend or break. (I know this from bitter experience.)

--------------------------------------------

Steve or Shane:

A collector friend told me years ago that he had an HMV #4 sound box equipped with a pot metal back plate and a brass front. He claimed it was all original. Can either of you confirm their existence?

Along this line, I'm wondering if a replacement back plate could be located, if Bart's #4 sound box is salvageable?

DS

[OrthoSean]

I think David is onto something here, I think one of my HMV #4s has a pot metal back and brass front while my other one os all brass. The one in Bart's first photo sure looks like the body (front) itself is brass. Maybe just a replacement back is all Bart needs. I've rebuilt a number of both Victor and HMV #4s for myself and others, pot metal and brass alike and it's true those gaskets turn to glue. I did one for a customer more recently that was really tough to get apart, I ended up sacrificing the mica in the end, but I had to soak the old gaskets with some oil to get it apart which took several attempts and lots of time. I've only ever had one completely fall apart on me and that was a Victor #4a (all pot metal) which was in pretty bad shape to begin with, I wasn't expecting it to hold up anyway.

Sean