CYGNET OR MUSIC MASTER

[RefSeries]

Dear Gordon

Small point but you mention import taxes for the UK. Sometimes I have been hit with 20% tax on phono bits from overseas. This is wrong - it should be 5% for stuff >100 years, and I have found that the HMRC will refund the difference if you whinge. I don't know if that helps.

BTW I would go for a nice 11 panel horn, as others have suggested. Check the shipping cost first, though, as you need to be clever to get it inside the postage size. I most definitely would not drill for a cygnet bracket.

Cheers

Keith

[Valecnik]

I've seen more than one Model B Ideal or Idelia with 2/4 minute gearing, large carriage and straight matching horn or with matching wood grained cygnet, I own one.

These are essentially upgraded two minute Triumphs. I can't swear to the provenance but seems unlikely they were made up later.

Why would someone who had an A or B model Triumph, a very well running, expensive machine, not upgrade as the new equipment came out?

[Jerry B.]

I agree with Bruce and can't help but wonder why we see so many unconverted two minute Triumphs. I think the reason is because we are looking with the eye of a collector. When four minute cylinders were introduced in 1908 there was a slight boost in sales but it wasn't much more than a bump. If you plotted a yearly graph of market share between 1900 and 1915 comparing the disk and cylinder formats, the cylinder format was in decline from 1903/4 (or so...best guess) The owner of a two minute Triumph realized he owned a boat anchor and saved his money for a Victrola or Grafonola or other disk machine. We should be thankful so many cylinder owners placed their machines in the attic rather than in the scrap heap. Jerry Blais

[phonogfp]

I've seen more than one Model B Ideal or Idelia with 2/4 minute gearing, large carriage and straight matching horn or with matching wood grained cygnet, I own one.

These are essentially upgraded two minute Triumphs. I can't swear to the provenance but seems unlikely they were made up later.

Why would someone who had an A or B model Triumph, a very well running, expensive machine, not upgrade as the new equipment came out?

Read Jerry's posting carefully. He asked if anyone had ever found an untouched TWO MINUTE Edison equipped with a cygnet horn. I never have. Cygnet horn equipment on A/B/C models has always been accompanied with a 2/4 minute attachment. Of course, there's nothing that would have prevented an owner from avoiding the 4-minute capability and simply upgraded to a cygnet, but it seems the Edison dealers did a good job of selling the Amberol Attachments first, and adding the cygnet equipment as an adjunct.

I too have seen many 2/4 minute conversions on A/B/C models without the cygnet equipment, but never the cygnet equipment without the 2/4 minute conversion.

George P.

[Valecnik]

Got it George, Jerry,

I agree. I've never seen a straight two minute machine, (without 2/4 minute gearing) with a cygnet.

[gsphonos]

Gordon does mention that his machine IS drilled for a cygnet horn bracket. So, was there an upgrade to 2/4 minute gearing put on it at some point, with a cygnet wood or metal horn, and then some later collector/owner returned it to a 2 minute player?

Just my ten cents worth!

Mike Sorter

[debndunk]

Hi Mike, I'm glad to see you read my posting, and I think your right about previous owners. When I received the Triumph it was in bits, the bed plate frame was in splinters, but I had all the splinters and glued the back together. I had to do a complete job on this machine but the holes were already there, I didn't fill them and who's to say you can't put a Cygnet horn on a two minute machine? Gordon

[Dave]

Hi Mike, I'm glad to see you read my posting, and I think your right about previous owners. When I received the Triumph it was in bits, the bed plate frame was in splinters, but I had all the splinters and glued the back together. I had to do a complete job on this machine but the holes were already there, I didn't fill them and who's to say you can't put a Cygnet horn on a two minute machine? Gordon

Maybe the same "purists" who say its sacriledge to use a Victrola No.2 on a Victor VI.

If you want to use a Cygnet horn on your 2min. Triumph and the holes are drilled for the back bracket...by all means use one.

Your not going to burn in phono hell for doing it.

[Jerry B.]

Dave is absolutely correct, if it pleases you to display your Triumph with a Cygnet horn, please do so. It doesn't hurt anything. My initial idea was just intended as a friendly suggestion to more accurately display a very attractive two minute Triumph. Jerry Blais
*
I should say that my posts reflect some personal bias and opinion. Unless an original Edison black M/G horn is in excellent condition, I find them boring because they are just a big black horn. I find an after market colored horn with flowers much more interesting even if the condition is not excellent.

[debndunk]

Hi Jerry' I think the black MG horn's are boring too but I suppose they have there place. I wish it was as easy to get nice horns over here in the UK as it is in the States, even if you can get someone to ship one over the shipping is so expensive so I have to make do. I would like to change my Triumph to a 2/4 minute machine but its getting the bits. I thought that a Home mandrel with sun and planet might work but when I looked at it, it looks a bit different.
Gordon