Black / Shellac Dust On Needle After Playing, Tried Everything

[OddRomanian]

Switch to thorn or bamboo needles.

They require maintenance as they are re-usable. You can often get more than one play out of them before they need resharpening, and you can resharpen them many times before they are too short to be used again.

They reduce record wear. The also seem to reduce record noise.

Bamboo: I do not know of a source of new bamboo needles. But you can make your own with a little practice (see Youtube), but these will not be as durable as vintage ones which were treated to harden them. The needle chuck on your HMV machine will have a triangular aperture to accept these needles. When they wear down you can re-tip them. A needle sharpener/cutter is handy, but these are expensive and hard to come by if they are in good working condition. They can also be re-tipped, cut with a sharp razor knife or sanded down to a tip with a fine emery cloth.

Thorn: A variety of thorns were used for thorn needles. I have a supply of vintage cactus needles. Member Orchosol sells modern Burmese Colour Needles, which by all accounts that have reached my ears and eyes, are quite wonderful. To resharpen these well you need a special rotary tool, a bit hard (but not impossible) to find in good working order, and a bit expensive. I have also seen re-sharpening kits with little sanding boards, like small nail boards, with different grades of sand paper attached. I have the remnants of one of these kits. They work, sort of, but the results are much poorer than with the rotary tool.

Well I could eventually try.

Thank you!

[OddRomanian]

I think Gramophone Georg’s suggestion that it might be the auto brake mechanism causing the problem is a good one.
Try moving the tonearm through its arc by hand with the auto brake engaged. It should move freely with VERY little resistance.

Thank you!

It seems to move perfectly and with no resistance!

[OddRomanian]

I am left to wonder what the condition of your records are to begin with. In my thinking, if the grooves are already worn, the otherwise smooth surfaces of the groove walls will have been roughed/scored/worn and will likely be more susceptible to further degredation with each playing. So, if you have a record that has lost groove material, it may continue to do so no matter what steel needle you use. Just my theory anyway.

They weren't bad condition, that's for sure.

I hope that isn't the case and the records are doomed!

[OddRomanian]

PM me with your shipping info please. I will gladly send some if you will cover my postage charges from USA. Fair enough? If you'd rather try to find something more local to you no offense taken at all. Maybe Inigo could help as he is in Barcelona (I think!). Another option is to try fibre needles until you get this sorted.

Your issue can also be caused by hardened gaskets in the soundbox, soundbox bar adjusted too tight, a hardened isolator between the box and tone arm tube, or the tone arm joints not swinging freely at their pivots. I am not sure if you have an autobrake on your machine, but too much tension on the tripper could also be an issue.

There's always that outside chance that it really is the needles, but this seems odd if they are from Soundgen from all I have heard. Trying some other known good needles can certainly be a good diagnostic tool.

Thanks for the answer and sorry for taking so much to answer!

I do have autobrake but It all seems fine, the rubber part between tonearm and soundbox, while It is the orignal one, It is soft (not too soft but not hardened either) and I don't know how to check the rest.

Regarding the needles, I do beleive your offer is more than fair, but I doubt now I can afford shipping from the US. What is It? Like around 50$?

If I ever have this type of money readily available I will contact you.

Thank you for the help!

[OddRomanian]

Hi, I'm in Madrid, and I can help, of course.
If the only thing you've changed is the needle supply, 80% probably culprit is the needles, being Soundgen or whatever; examine the points to see if all is alright. Or may likely be that they are a different thickness, much finer, and they ride on the bottom of the groove and scratch it. With modern soft soundgen needles I’ve noticed they have a very fine point and are extremely fine for the grooves. One good trick is to play first the final locked groove at the center of the record by several turns, and this will kill the too acute point; then take the tonearm to the beginning of the record and play it.
The other 20% may be another thing or subtle change that you're not aware of .. slightly different angle in the soundbox, something that has broken inside, etc.
But there is also another reason. I may get enemies herein for saying this, but... With all the good sound the HMV 102 has, the practical and comfortable operation, the endurance, the beauty and it all --we all love it-- it's one of the worst machines I've ever seen regarding the tracking angle of the soundbox. I’ve ruined records playing them on this machine. Maybe it was already happening and you didn’t notice it.
For instance, spanish super-soft shellac pressings of late forties to mid fifties, like the latest Odeons in the 184000/185000/203000 series, the high number GYs or Regals, etc. all shellac products by Gramofono-Odeon of that era, the ones with a pressed ring around the center, maybe 3cm diameter. All these late pressings were very good shellac, very soft and rich, intended to reduce hiss noise, which they do... But they’re aimed to be played on light pickups, and for the good they play on acoustic machines, they become ruined and greyed in a dozen plays. And the progress is so fast... nothing at the first plays, and suddenly the record starts to degrade and become grey. It is simply that they don’t work well on these machines. Same happens to the late forties Columbia records, those in the high R-14000 and the later R-18000 series and the like. After 1948, all spanish pressings become softer, and are ruined when played on acoustic machines, especially these portables with short tonearms and bad alignment. I’ve seen much better results in the large consoles which have very long tonearms and good tracking.
Simply this later shellac composition is too sensitive and will accuse any condition that is not ideal.
I recommend you to try bamboo or cactus needles... although in my experience, with these portables they don’t work too well. On these late pressings they don’t; the bamboo burns out the grooves.
With acoustic machines you must play only pre-1945 records, I almost say only pre-war records. The more modern ones are easily ruined.

Thank you for the extensive answer!

I'm in Madrid too!

How many turns should I leave the needle grinding to kill the acute point?

How do I check for those different problems that might have occured?

I was always under the impression that the HMV 102 was "kinder" (as kind as an acoustic machine can be) to revords than other, more heaby tracking machines.

And, to be fair, I do not own any Odeon or Regal recordings.

My post war recordings are all British or austrian, I only have one Spanish record, a Columbia from 1954, althouhgh I have played like 30 times in my gramophone and It still plays like on day one.

Thank you for the tips and the help!

[Inigo]

Turns around the central groove... I let it run for some seconds... 4 or 5 turns. This kills the too acute point.
Theoretically this is done on the outer rim of the record, as the old instruction booklets said, for some turns before pushing the needle into the first groove. But if the record is modern and has fast start groove this does not work. That was valid for the old records that had no fast start. After the creation of autochangers, the records carried the fast start groove.

[OddRomanian]

Turns around the central groove... I let it run for some seconds... 4 or 5 turns. This kills the too acute point.
Theoretically this is done on the outer rim of the record, as the old instruction booklets said, for some turns before pushing the needle into the first groove. But if the record is modern and has fast start groove this does not work. That was valid for the old records that had no fast start. After the creation of autochangers, the records carried the fast start groove.

This information is very useful
Thank you very much! : )

I've got two more questions If you don't mind.

Assuming I do this with all my needles, If I ever do It with a good needle and then play a record, would It be bad for It because the good needle was sanded down a bit?

Secondly, If you say you are only leaving the needle grind for a few seconds / 5 turns, does that mean that the dust I see on the needle after plsyback (assuming It is caused by an acute point) is just dust grinded from the beginning seconds of the record and wasn't grinding for the whole duration?

Thank you and sorry If I am annoying!

[Inigo]

No, not at all annoying! Just ask all you want to know, and if we can answer, we'll help.
The dust may come from anywhere in the record, but if you detect it at the end, I'm afraid it has been produced at the end.. I believe, but don't know for certain, that the first dust is later deposited on the grooves, so you get only the latest dust produced.
There can be many reasons for this dust, mechanical issues, the needles themselves, or the record. I've noticed, for instance, that some records are prone to wear after being cleaned with water and soap... something in the shellac is spoiled.
The better would be to see and feel it all, the needles, the machine, and the records, to express an accurate and successful judgement of the problem. Why don't you send some photos of them, maybe s video of it playing, etc...?

[OddRomanian]

No, not at all annoying! Just ask all you want to know, and if we can answer, we'll help.
The dust may come from anywhere in the record, but if you detect it at the end, I'm afraid it has been produced at the end.. I believe, but don't know for certain, that the first dust is later deposited on the grooves, so you get only the latest dust produced.
There can be many reasons for this dust, mechanical issues, the needles themselves, or the record. I've noticed, for instance, that some records are prone to wear after being cleaned with water and soap... something in the shellac is spoiled.
The better would be to see and feel it all, the needles, the machine, and the records, to express an accurate and successful judgement of the problem. Why don't you send some photos of them, maybe s video of it playing, etc...?

Thank you : )

Of course I can upload a video, just tell me what should I add to It and I will. I truly appreciate the help!

Should I upload the video on the forum for everyone to see or send It to you?

[OrthoFan]

...Your issue can also be caused by hardened gaskets in the soundbox, soundbox bar adjusted too tight, a hardened isolator between the box and tone arm tube, or the tone arm joints not swinging freely at their pivots. I am not sure if you have an autobrake on your machine, but too much tension on the tripper could also be an issue.

...the rubber part between tonearm and soundbox, while It is the orignal one, It is soft (not too soft but not hardened either) and I don't know how to check the rest.

The diaphragm gaskets installed in the HMV 5a/5b sound boxes were made out of compressed FELT, so hardened diaphragm gaskets should not be an issue. If the back flange's gasket is relatively soft, then that shouldn't present problems, but I don't know how soft it was originally...

One thing to test is the needle bar tension. Remove the sound box from the tonearm, insert a needle and GENTLY pump the needle back an forth. You should see the diaphragm move slightly. If not, the tension of the support screws/small nuts is set too high, and we can walk you through the steps to adjust it properly.

In terms of records, those from the late 1920s through about the mid-1930s were specifically designed to be played on acoustic gramophones, at least in the US. When you have a chance, list a few of the troublesome records -- Label, Song Title and Record Number. That might provide a clue.

The HMV 102 portables were among the best ever designed in terms of build quality, ruggedness, weight and sound quality. Properly restored, an HMV 102 provides a room filling sound, with a strong treble, mid-range and even some bass. It should sound very much like an electrically amplified gramophone, as numerous YouTube videos indicate.

OrthoFan