Help needed with Victrola XI-A motor

[physicist]

waiting for someone to give advice on approximate weight to put on a record for simulating weight of tonearm and needle, to see if it now will run.

The weight will depend upon the type of reproducer. It would probably be somewhere between 100 - 200 grams. However, it's not just the weight, it's also the frictional drag - you would have to have a needle in a moving record groove applying the force to correctly simulate the rotational drag on the motor.

I've just weighed a few (possibly) relevant items:-

An Expert 4 spring soundbox weighs 217 g but, when mounted on the tonearm, the force on the record is closer to 180 g as some of the weight is supported by the tone arm.

If you were just interested in the weight on the motor spindle, you should also add the weight of a typical record (around 180 g for a 10") and the weight of the turntable (1Kg on an Expert Junior !)

[nostalgia]

This is maybe difficult to simulate since it is hard to calculate the dragging force. Maybe I need the cabinet after all. The original Victrola no 2 reproducer is attached to the tonearm inside the cabinet. I hate the idea of driving 200 km to test, and then possibly discover that the speed adjuster brake pad against all odds was not the problem.
Not that I don't trust Soundgen but I feel Murphy's law already potentially is out playing games with me here

[nostalgia]

This is interesting. I have the turntable, si I can test. Are you saying I should add 180 grams for dragging force plus the approximate weight of a Victrola reproducer on top of record and do a test run?
I write from my phone so it is a bit difficult to get the overview. If you can write the approximate total weight to put on a record to test on the turntable I will happily test it.

[physicist]

You may be overcomplicating this. You have other machines. Can you get a feel for the pulling power
of a machine that you know is good and compare that with the one you are testing. I was thinking of just
putting your finger against the edge of the turntable and sensing the force needed to slow the rotation.

The weight is not really the issue - your turntable probably weighs more than everything else added together - it's the rotational drag of the needle in the groove that is the real test (or simulating that drag with your finger on the turntable edge).

[nostalgia]

I am in the garage and over complicating most probably. I feel it can be difficult to check the dragging force of another gramophone and compare...I will try though

[soundgen]

I'd like to point out that the machine worked properly before it was transported. If it was the matter of the speed indicator tension spring bring too high, that would mean that it was replaced after the machine was sold. Was it ? I believe that the amount of force generated by those weights on the governor is more than sufficient to overcome that little spring.

If the the main springs are the original ones, I doubt very much that they'd go weak all of a sudden, without warning.

Glad that both speed control lever and speed control arms aren't as the picture illustrates. It is an optical illusion.

If you haven't already done it , please examine the governor and confirm that the ends of it are not damaged which is what could happen if the machine was dropped.

Don't worry too much about the tracking weight of the no.2 reproducer. That motor will have suffficient torque to make it work. Without doubt. I never had the reason to measure it, but it's probably in the neighborhood of 3-5 oz. Because I never had a reason to measure it, I never purchased a scale that could.

If your motor is operating correctly, it will not be at all under powered. One thing- is the soundbox at the proper angle- viewed from the diaphragm side- turned fully clockwise so the needle is at an angle? That probably wouldn't be enough to bog down the motor. No insult intended-

There are some things that I'd consider to be way too incredible to be considered. Like a smashed ball bearing underneath the spindle shaft or smashed ball bearing in either of the end bearings for the governor. But I can't say I've seen everything and there is almost always a first time for somethings.
If it were mine, I'd concentrate on the governor as any excessive friction in the operation of it will make the motor malfunction. Given the information you give and the fact that it was fine before it was transported.

I appreciate that the machine worked properly before it was transported and I do not know why but it must have been that the speed indicator pad wasn't touching the brass plate for some reason , this was probably disturbed by transportation , the spring in the speed indicator is totally wrong it looks like something out of a watch or clock and is probably 100 times as strong as the original hair spring , I have had this problem before but not as severe when a spring slightly too thick was used to replace a broken hair spring ( not by me ) resulting in a machine always playing slow but not to my ear only to the customer who had perfect pitch ! it will work perfectly well when this is disabled in some way and / or the correct spring inserted " Trust in Me " as someone in the Jungle Book said

[soundgen]

I am in the garage and over complicating most probably. I feel it can be difficult to check the dragging force of another gramophone and compare...I will try though

Just remove the speed indicator mechanism , and drive back and fit it without it will play perfectly and then later you can get the proper spring ! " Trust in Me " If it doesn't work I'll pay for your gasoline or as we say here petrol ( two nations speaking different English ) By the way a hair spring is just as thick as a hair !

[nostalgia]

I have disabled the speed indicator mechanism now. It was easy to do, so now the pad will not touch the plate.
By the way, the governor ends are all good, the governor spins like it should, cabinet has not been dropped etc.
I will trust you Soundgen and drive out during the weekend to now test the motor inside to he cabinet. As told I also removed the main springs today, they are powerful, attach well and greased more than the hair of Elvis Presley in the past

[soundgen]

I have disabled the speed indicator mechanism now. It was easy to do, so now the pad will not touch the plate.
By the way, the governor ends are all good, the governor spins like it should, cabinet has not been dropped etc.
I will trust you Soundgen and drive out during the weekend to now test the motor inside to he cabinet. As told I also removed the main springs today, they are powerful, attach well and greased more than the hair of Elvis Presley in the past

[nostalgia]

I have been able to test the function with the disabled speed indicator mechanism.

I had HMV 109 in my garage room, and got an idea to remove the motorboard of the 109,
and throw in the motorboard of the Victrola XI-A, since quick measures showed that the
motorboard sizes were not too different:;)

Here is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oknwz-6 ... e=youtu.be

And Soundgen, without your help today I have big doubts that the cause of this problem would have been solved. A BIG thank you! A big thank you also to everyone else who also did their best in trying to help me with this problem. I am very grateful for your posts !

I would possibly at one stage have tried to remove the pad, since this also was my initial idea, but I would never have understood why it was bringing too much friction to the plate.
I also realize that the first intuitive response one get to a problem, often is correct,
my initial feeling (and saying in the first post), was that this to me unknown brake pad was slowing the governor. I would however never have blamed this small spring, I have not enough knowledge and past experience to realize that this was the problem. The fact that the machine has worked in my garage room during the past 2 months is also a mystery, but as you (Soundgen) said..the transportation must have awaken the problem and somehow allowed this oversized hair spring to disturb the governor plage to the maximum effect. I had this gramophone only for one year, and I know that it before I got the last 20-30 years had been stored in a gazebo without being used. Still, sometime in the remote past a repair must have been done to the gramophone, where this spring has been changed.
This was actually a very good day for learning, no doubt !