Victor VV-IV information

[Bobm90]

Hi, here I am with another question for more knowledgeable people than myself. I have a Victor VV-IV made in 1917, I was required to replace the tone arm and bracket because it was missing from my machine. I find now that when it is fully wound it starts to play but slows to a stop after only several revolutions of the record, I have tried different reproducers (victor #5) from my working machines, different needles, and even lighter spare reproducers that I had as spares, all with the same result. I took the motor apart and inspected the drive spring, cleaned it (while in the case), and removed all the old grease, I just left WD-40 on it as a test and upon my exam saw no breaks or deformation of the spring. So a long story for a short question. Can these flat motor springs lose power? I know coil springs can become weak over time but don't know if a flat spring can. Any clues or advice you can give would be appreciated, thank you.
Bob

[Inigo]

It could be many other things than a weak spring.... The spring should be taken off the barrel, thoroughly cleaned, reassembled and greased with good quality automotive grease, lithium grease or whatever, but not dear old wd40.
The motor should be disassembled, and everything cleaned and regresased, same good grease for the gears, and a light good oil for bearings and the governor sleeve and friction pad.
If after that motor overhaul the problem persists, then one should look after gearing misalignment, bent shafts or whatever. Listen to the motor noises trying to identify which gear is noisy, if any, etc. If the motor seems right, then a new spring could be the answer.
The book of Eric Reiss, The Compleat Talking Machine, could be a good companion to learn how those motors must be repaired....

[Phono48]

Good advice from Inigo. You will never be able to clean a spring properly unless it is removed from the barrel. The coils are packed so tightly together that nothing will penetrate between them. The spring and it's drum must be cleaned thoroughly, which usually means employing a sharp chisel, as the grease and graphite mixture has set to a cement-like mass.

Barry

[OrthoFan]

A quick way to check for a sluggish motor is to fully wind the Victrola, and then pinch the spindle with your thumb and forefinger. It should take a considerable amount of pressure to stop it. (This was a tip given to me by an old time collector about 40 years ago.)

In addition to a motor in need of overhaul and lubrication, a turntable can also slow down to a stop when trying to play a record with a worn needle. A conventional steel needle should be used to play no more than one or two sides of a record, then discarded.

Another culprit could be the record, itself. A worn record--or one with a damaged/rough surface--can slow the turntable down to a stop, as can playing the wrong type of 78 rpm record. Ideally, the records should date from the early 1900s through the late 1920s, but shellac-based 78s produced until about the mid-to-late 1930s, or even into the early 1940s, are normally fine if the reproducer/sound box has been overhauled and a soft-tone steel needle is used. Later pressings--those dating from the mid-1940s on, can be iffy, and vinyl 78s should be avoided at all cost.

If you have a chance, please post some photos of your Victrola.

OrthoFan

[MarkELynch]

Bob,

I’ve seen this symptom many times and if you have eliminated the motor as the source then the problem is related to the type of record that is being played. Later records from say the 1940’s when lightweight electrical pickups were common have a much softer surface that the earlier hard shellac records. What type of record are you testing your machine with? If you are using a later record with a soft surface on your VV-IV the turntable slows and stops because the needle digs into the record surface.

Let us know what you learn.

Mark

[AmberolaAndy]

WD-40 is only good for maybe cleaning grease off motors but that’s only the extent of that.

I’m not sure if the VV-IV motors by this point has the same style motor as the VV-50, but I would say it’s a good machine to start with if you want to learn how to restore a machine in depth.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. I’m In my Sixth year of collecting machines and even I still get stumped figuring out some machines. (See my thread about the Triumph brake)

There’s people here collecting longer than I’ve been living (32 years) and many have the answers.

[Bobm90]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and advice. I was trying to clean up old grease using wd 40 not intending to use it as a replacement for grease. I will post some pictures here but you need to understand this machine was mostly a total wreck when I started work on it. I am just trying to salvage what I can of it to be saved for future generations and to learn some stuff along the way if possible. This battle is far from over at this point but I will follow all advice on here when I get back to working on it, this is a 1917 machine-made without sound deflector slats. As someone suggested there may be some bent shafts involved in my problems, I could just look for another motor but that would be too easy, wouldn't it? LOL. Thanks again, guys.

[Inigo]

There's another point to check on the bull gear and how it attacks the turntable spindle worm, but after you've discarded the spring issue and right governor adjustment...

[VanEpsFan1914]

Hello Bob,

We have similar Victrolas; mine is built with the slats in the horn mouth but the open-mouth models look pretty great. They're capable little phonographs and some of my favorite small styles of machine to look at. It's nice & simple and has everything you need in a Victrola: great oak grain, nickel plating, green felt, beautiful aluminum dataplate, and a petite case design that fits a lot of modern home interiors. Stylish little machines.

There's plenty of yours left to work with, so don't give up--it's going to turn out all right in the end!

The way I find to get an idea whether my mainsprings are good still is to take the spring out of the barrel. You will have to run the motor all the way down, remove the governor, remove the spring-barrel from the frame, and get that spring out of there. Everyone has different ways they prefer to work on this, with some folks liking to let the spring unwind into a gunnysack and others preferring to put the barrel in a vise, face up, and work the spring out that way round and round until it's out.

When the spring is out of the barrel, remove the arbor from the center coil so you don't lose it, and lay the spring flat on a tabletop or a smooth cement floor. You should be able to tell if it's powerful or not; a spring with enough power in it should be laying in wider coils on the ground, while a weak spring will lie flat in a tighter coil not expanding as far as a nice fresh one. Victrola springs are thin, making them very easy to wind up. This is great, but a lot of them will crack or break. I had to troubleshoot my first Victrola and found one of its mainsprings had a big crack in it, only half way through, where a chunk of hard graphite grease had fallen between the coils. Cranking the motor had crushed the coil down on top that big quid of grease and split the second spring. I wouldn't have noticed that unless I got in & worked on everything--replacing the cracked spring with a good quality used spring made the whole thing work. Had I not been a broke high schooler I'd have put in 3 fresh ones, new production. Oh well, it's about due for an oil change and I may have to get some springs anyway just to boost performance.

This will let you visualize how potent your spring is. If it's in good shape, clean it up completely & put it back in with fresh grease and go from there. If not, try for a fresh spring.

These are great Victrolas & you did well to save it.