How to clean surface noise from a 78

[Edisonfan]

People loved them and played them, no matter what. Who needs a needle when you've got some extra brads laying around?

That is true! brads?

Brads - small nails like you hang pictures with, but no heads...

Ah! But of course!

So, I took your advice about using WD-40. I cleaned one of my Ida Cox Brown Shellac Paramounts, and played it on my audio-technica turntable. Still produced some noise, but the stylus managed to pull some crud out of the grooves. Then, I went over and played the same record, on my Victrola but used a Tungs-Tone stylus, and there was less noise. Turns out, my Victrola, is still useful after all.

[Lah Ca]

Hi Paul
There are two means to reproduce the old 78s: with a vintage gramophone and with modern electronic equipment.

Reproduction with vintage gramophones: the best reproductions I've heard were made either with EMGs/Experts or with a custom-made very large exponential horn, conceived by Nimbus records. The advantage of utilizing gramophones with such large exponential horns is that the recording is filtered out of the high frequency hiss without compromising the low end of the spectrum. All gramophones act as high pass filters, cutting out the high end of the spectrum and therefore eliminating the hiss and other high frequency imperfections on the original record, but only the ones with well designed horns, like the ones I mentioned and the large re-entrants like the HMV202 allow the reproduction of the low notes down to the limits that were recorded.

Reproduction with modern gear: the main limitation of utilizing modern equipment is that it is too revealing, and hiss, rumble, clicks, pops and wear distortion will overwhelm the music if not filtered out. To do so, the most important factors to consider when playing 78s with modern gear are:

- selection of the right stylus. There was no standardization of groove dimensions, which wasn't important when the records were played with large bore steel needles, but modern diamond stylii are much smaller in diameter, so depending on how they fit within the groove, they may reach the wrong wall height of the groove, or bounce within it, producing a more or less horrible sound. Moreover, as most records have some degree of wear, if the stylus reaches a higher or lower height in the groove it may avoid the most worn level and result in a less noisy play. This is all a matter of trial and error, but for that the start point is to have at hand a set of stylii of different gauges.

- selection of a variable speed turntable: if you play records issued before 1930, you know that their speeds can vary from high 60s to high 80s rpm. This makes necessary to have variable speed turntable. Playing at the wrong speed is more critical for classical music, as you would not want Caruso to sing like a soprano, for pop music, like in most of your you tuber videos, are most of your posts this is not too annoying unless it is a vocal of a well known singer.

- utilization of noise reduction equipment: the best noise reduction equipment I heard over the years is something called CEDAR. It is not a digital app, it is actually an electronic box that is fitted in the amplification chain. Some of the people here may remember that in the 80s and 90s most of the vintage music CDs were treated with CEDAR. I think it is still in production and can be bought and added to an analog chain. Today there are digital means, lots of them, but to my ears I am still to find one that sounds acceptable, I believe the excessive digital processing has to do with it, making the music sound artificial.

Nice overview/summary. Thank you.

CEDAR Cambridge -- very interesting

https://youtu.be/BPjqKzOwuYI?si=BleKlEw0eJ7WSB6s

Not really for the home user, but I would imagine that there are collectors with very deep pockets who would pay as much or more for the right and perfect one-of-a-kind early Edison or Berliner machine -- don't choke on your morning coffee here:

2024-06-23 06.08.04 www.gothamsound.com ddb69435e3e9.jpg (11.16 KiB) Viewed 1906 times

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/cam ... -processor

[Edisonfan]

Hi Paul
There are two means to reproduce the old 78s: with a vintage gramophone and with modern electronic equipment.

Reproduction with vintage gramophones: the best reproductions I've heard were made either with EMGs/Experts or with a custom-made very large exponential horn, conceived by Nimbus records. The advantage of utilizing gramophones with such large exponential horns is that the recording is filtered out of the high frequency hiss without compromising the low end of the spectrum. All gramophones act as high pass filters, cutting out the high end of the spectrum and therefore eliminating the hiss and other high frequency imperfections on the original record, but only the ones with well designed horns, like the ones I mentioned and the large re-entrants like the HMV202 allow the reproduction of the low notes down to the limits that were recorded.

Reproduction with modern gear: the main limitation of utilizing modern equipment is that it is too revealing, and hiss, rumble, clicks, pops and wear distortion will overwhelm the music if not filtered out. To do so, the most important factors to consider when playing 78s with modern gear are:

- selection of the right stylus. There was no standardization of groove dimensions, which wasn't important when the records were played with large bore steel needles, but modern diamond stylii are much smaller in diameter, so depending on how they fit within the groove, they may reach the wrong wall height of the groove, or bounce within it, producing a more or less horrible sound. Moreover, as most records have some degree of wear, if the stylus reaches a higher or lower height in the groove it may avoid the most worn level and result in a less noisy play. This is all a matter of trial and error, but for that the start point is to have at hand a set of stylii of different gauges.

- selection of a variable speed turntable: if you play records issued before 1930, you know that their speeds can vary from high 60s to high 80s rpm. This makes necessary to have variable speed turntable. Playing at the wrong speed is more critical for classical music, as you would not want Caruso to sing like a soprano, for pop music, like in most of your you tuber videos, are most of your posts this is not too annoying unless it is a vocal of a well known singer.

- utilization of noise reduction equipment: the best noise reduction equipment I heard over the years is something called CEDAR. It is not a digital app, it is actually an electronic box that is fitted in the amplification chain. Some of the people here may remember that in the 80s and 90s most of the vintage music CDs were treated with CEDAR. I think it is still in production and can be bought and added to an analog chain. Today there are digital means, lots of them, but to my ears I am still to find one that sounds acceptable, I believe the excessive digital processing has to do with it, making the music sound artificial.

Nice overview/summary. Thank you.

CEDAR Cambridge -- very interesting

https://youtu.be/BPjqKzOwuYI?si=BleKlEw0eJ7WSB6s

Not really for the home user, but I would imagine that there are collectors with very deep pockets who would pay as much or more for the right and perfect one-of-a-kind early Edison or Berliner machine -- don't choke on your morning coffee here:

2024-06-23 06.08.04 www.gothamsound.com ddb69435e3e9.jpg

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/cam ... -processor

Yea, that’s pretty steep. I’ll stick with Curt’s suggestion.

[CarlosV]

Not really for the home user, but I would imagine that there are collectors with very deep pockets who would pay as much or more for the right and perfect one-of-a-kind early Edison or Berliner machine -- don't choke on your morning coffee here:

The CEDAR processors exist since 30 years, the first version being analog, so I believe that a vintage CEDAR will go for a fraction of the state-of-art version, although as you mention it was never made for home use, meaning that there may not be a high number of these machines available for sale. The same goes for the Archeophone, a machine conceived to play cylinders of all sizes and durations - its price is similar to the CEDAR (and the CEDAR is still needed to clean the cylinder sound, the Archeophone only plays it).

[Edisonfan]

People loved them and played them, no matter what. Who needs a needle when you've got some extra brads laying around?

I have some Victor Tungs-Tone Stylus, I decided to try on my Columbia Vival-Tonal records, by playing them, on my Victrola.

I have two other 78 cartridges, for my audio-technica turntable,. Of course I would need to buy two more head shells for them. You are right about those early 78’s being noisy on modern equipment. However some of my reissue 78’s, sound better on modern equipment. Especially from the 1930’s.


Paul

[Curt A]

Probably the most interesting solution to the issue of noise suppression comes from the Jan. 1920 issue of The Talking Machine World:

Screenshot 2024-06-23 at 6.25.58 PM.png (85.82 KiB) Viewed 1875 times

[Edisonfan]

Probably the most interesting solution to the issue of noise suppression comes from the Jan. 1920 issue of The Talking Machine World:


Screenshot 2024-06-23 at 6.25.58 PM.png

Okay, that’s a good one!

[JerryVan]

"I do know that, my Black Swan and my Black Paramounts tend to have the most ware, and scratches. Compared to Columbia and Victor."

Consider the target audience for these records when new. Probably poor people without the means to spend money on new phonograph needles supposed to be used once and discarded... Almost every early blues record that I have seen, has been overplayed with used needles or old nails, resulting in extreme wear and surface noise. Beside that fact, the records were made cheaply.

In addition to lack of new needles was almost certainly a lack of good record storage, such as record cabinets, albums, sleeves, etc. In addition to groove wear, many have surface scratches that suggest they were used in some odd game of shuffleboard.

[Marc Hildebrant]

With regard to restoration of 78's and Edison Discs, I wrote a book on techniques that I developed. You can buy an electronic copy or a hard copy and the software from diamondcut productions at: https://www.diamondcut.com/st3/. They have run a number of specials, and you can get their software and my book for much less than $100. The software runs on a windows PC.

For the surface noise, the Diamond Cut CNF (continuous noise filter) works very well.

Marc

[Edisonfan]

With regard to restoration of 78's and Edison Discs, I wrote a book on techniques that I developed. You can buy an electronic copy or a hard copy and the software from diamondcut productions at: https://www.diamondcut.com/st3/. They have run a number of specials, and you can get their software and my book for much less than $100. The software runs on a windows PC.

For the surface noise, the Diamond Cut CNF (continuous noise filter) works very well.

Marc

Thanks, but I have a Mac.